Surface ships attacking carriers.
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Surface ships attacking carriers.
I know it has only happened very few times and it may have been chance in each case that surface ships got a chance to fire on carriers.
If you were going to deliberately try and attack a carrier in the WW2 period how would you go about doing this difficult task?
I am guessing that you would do this when air operations were not able to be run, aircraft were busy engaging another target, or if aircraft had been depleted.
Is the speed that fleet carriers are capable of the bigger problem is engaging one (if no aircraft are hounding you) or is it time and possible damage lost to you dealing with the escorts that make the carrier a difficult target?
If you were going to deliberately try and attack a carrier in the WW2 period how would you go about doing this difficult task?
I am guessing that you would do this when air operations were not able to be run, aircraft were busy engaging another target, or if aircraft had been depleted.
Is the speed that fleet carriers are capable of the bigger problem is engaging one (if no aircraft are hounding you) or is it time and possible damage lost to you dealing with the escorts that make the carrier a difficult target?
- Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
Schanhorst did it, quite succesfully.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
Carriers don't have to worry about fouling their firing solution and so can maneuver in ways to make themselves harder targets. If they have a CAP up they should also be able to maneuver in such a way that they don't even come in range of enemy ships. Other than that they are not really any harder target than other ships of their respective size, speed, and maneuverability. A general rule of thumb though is that if the bad guys are shooting at your carrirers someone screwed up.
Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
When ever a carrier is attacked by a surface vessel, you have to suspect massive incompetence, somewhere in the carrier's chain of command.jonsidneyb wrote:I know it has only happened very few times and it may have been chance in each case that surface ships got a chance to fire on carriers.
If you were going to deliberately try and attack a carrier in the WW2 period how would you go about doing this difficult task?
I am guessing that you would do this when air operations were not able to be run, aircraft were busy engaging another target, or if aircraft had been depleted.
Is the speed that fleet carriers are capable of the bigger problem is engaging one (if no aircraft are hounding you) or is it time and possible damage lost to you dealing with the escorts that make the carrier a difficult target?
- Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
Like HMS Glorious...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
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Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
After the Midway conflict that we all know about I am thinking that the USN did not have a huge amount of air assets. I doubt it was enough to hold of the Japanese surface force which was quite large.
I suspect that if the IJN had made a run for the USN carriers that the speed of the carriers would have taken them to safety.
In bad weather and at night air operations were quite difficult. I thought it was bad weather and night that kept the forces wanting heavy escorts available.
How about if the IJN had stumbled across fleet carriers instead of the escort carriers. While it might have been a suicide mission would the force have been able to inflict much damage to the carriers in this unusual situation.
In spite of these events I was wondering if someone came up with a plan to use surface ships against carriers if it could be done by tactics. Find a time when weather was rough and air operations could not be done. How to get into position during these times.
I suspect that if the IJN had made a run for the USN carriers that the speed of the carriers would have taken them to safety.
In bad weather and at night air operations were quite difficult. I thought it was bad weather and night that kept the forces wanting heavy escorts available.
How about if the IJN had stumbled across fleet carriers instead of the escort carriers. While it might have been a suicide mission would the force have been able to inflict much damage to the carriers in this unusual situation.
In spite of these events I was wondering if someone came up with a plan to use surface ships against carriers if it could be done by tactics. Find a time when weather was rough and air operations could not be done. How to get into position during these times.
Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
The remaining two carriers had most of the surviving aircraft from Yorktown as well as their own, so they were still a major threat.jonsidneyb wrote:After the Midway conflict that we all know about I am thinking that the USN did not have a huge amount of air assets. I doubt it was enough to hold of the Japanese surface force which was quite large.
I believe this is what happened. Yamamoto initially attempted to close with them and quickly realized it wouldn't be possible.I suspect that if the IJN had made a run for the USN carriers that the speed of the carriers would have taken them to safety.
It's true air operations can be impossible during those conditions. Heavy escorts also provide AA defense.In bad weather and at night air operations were quite difficult. I thought it was bad weather and night that kept the forces wanting heavy escorts available.
Then they would also have stumbled across a much heavier surface escort. There would have been many destroyers and there would have been a huge smoke screen, with the fast carriers withdrawing behind it while launching a really nasty air attack. Part of Taffy's problem was they weren't fast enough and their screen wasn't very large or powerful.How about if the IJN had stumbled across fleet carriers instead of the escort carriers. While it might have been a suicide mission would the force have been able to inflict much damage to the carriers in this unusual situation.
That's the big problem, and I don't know the answer. You'd have to somehow get the heavy escorts completely out of the picture and also get close enough that you could cripple the CVs before they could outrun you. Glorious was caught without her full steam plant in operation, and that wouldn't have been likely in a normal situation with US CVs in the Pacific.In spite of these events I was wondering if someone came up with a plan to use surface ships against carriers if it could be done by tactics. Find a time when weather was rough and air operations could not be done. How to get into position during these times.
- Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
jonsidneyb:
Nagumo´s idea, after losing his carriers, was to close with his two BB and cruisers and destroy the USN CVs with gun fire. The problem was that Spruance smelled it and got away at flank speed. A speed that the particular BBs under Nagumo could not match for an interception.
After the Midway conflict that we all know about I am thinking that the USN did not have a huge amount of air assets. I doubt it was enough to hold of the Japanese surface force which was quite large.
Nagumo´s idea, after losing his carriers, was to close with his two BB and cruisers and destroy the USN CVs with gun fire. The problem was that Spruance smelled it and got away at flank speed. A speed that the particular BBs under Nagumo could not match for an interception.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
... and those were the fastest in the Japanese navy, right?Karl Heidenreich wrote:jonsidneyb:
After the Midway conflict that we all know about I am thinking that the USN did not have a huge amount of air assets. I doubt it was enough to hold of the Japanese surface force which was quite large.
Nagumo´s idea, after losing his carriers, was to close with his two BB and cruisers and destroy the USN CVs with gun fire. The problem was that Spruance smelled it and got away at flank speed. A speed that the particular BBs under Nagumo could not match for an interception.
- Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
Bgile,
I believe you´re right. At least one was a BC conversion, which by definition, at least, was the fast. The initial reports from the late Hiryu scouts was that the US Task Force was approaching Kido Butai, which was what Nagumo wanted. So he set course and speed to intercept Spruance. But as soon Spruance recovered his planes (which by the way weren´t that many because a lot of Enterprise´s and Hornet´s never returned but went into the drink, an aspect rarely mentioned in official reviews) he turn around and got the hell out of there.
I believe you´re right. At least one was a BC conversion, which by definition, at least, was the fast. The initial reports from the late Hiryu scouts was that the US Task Force was approaching Kido Butai, which was what Nagumo wanted. So he set course and speed to intercept Spruance. But as soon Spruance recovered his planes (which by the way weren´t that many because a lot of Enterprise´s and Hornet´s never returned but went into the drink, an aspect rarely mentioned in official reviews) he turn around and got the hell out of there.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
I'm pretty sure the US CVs actually pursued for a little while. Wasn't it carrier planes that damaged Tone and sunk her consort?
As for using weather to close. The problem is weather forecasting wasn't that good back then nor was the intel on where the CVs would be. That's one reason the Japanese didn't close. They had no way of knowing exactly where the CVs were and with Midway still operational the US had an unsinkable carrier capable of handling really long range planes. Operating in an environment where your opponent has a good idea where you are and how strong you are and you have little idea where he is can be very difficult.
As for using weather to close. The problem is weather forecasting wasn't that good back then nor was the intel on where the CVs would be. That's one reason the Japanese didn't close. They had no way of knowing exactly where the CVs were and with Midway still operational the US had an unsinkable carrier capable of handling really long range planes. Operating in an environment where your opponent has a good idea where you are and how strong you are and you have little idea where he is can be very difficult.
Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
As far as I'm aware there are only 2 actual historical accounts of Surface ships sinking carriers.
1. The Twins against Glorious
2. Japanese cruisers against USS Gambier Bay
1. The Twins against Glorious
2. Japanese cruisers against USS Gambier Bay
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst
Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
Adding to Gary's post one other scenario the British feared during the pursuit of Bismarck was the possibility of HMS Victorious blundering into the path of Prinz Eugen, especially at night.
Victorious was given a substantial light cruiser screen by Tovey for this reason - but a nightime encounter between PE and Victorious would have been interesting.....
Victorious was given a substantial light cruiser screen by Tovey for this reason - but a nightime encounter between PE and Victorious would have been interesting.....
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Re: Surface ships attacking carriers.
Well there was Hornet. Of course planes damaged her pretty badly. Then some US DDs tried thier hand. Ended up with some Japanese DDs finally putting her under.Gary wrote:As far as I'm aware there are only 2 actual historical accounts of Surface ships sinking carriers.
1. The Twins against Glorious
2. Japanese cruisers against USS Gambier Bay