Amare1 wrote:Right. But look at a couple of factors: Japanese here have the finest aircrews ever. US is rather less experienced and their aircraft still aren't any match for the Japanese types.
Out of the US aircraft, which do you think can make serious damage to the Japanese fleet? SBDs of course, but B17s, P39s, TBDs and other types they had here... no way.
Of course the Japanese couldn't keep Pearl when in 1943 US industry comes to its best, but I'm not implying to what would happen later, I only want to talk about this situation - Battle of Hawaii.
Amare1 wrote:@I say again, skilled Japanese pilots flying A6Ms against less skilled but brave US pilots flying F4Fs and other types. It's a tough one.
We'd all like a normal discussion, right? So don't talk nonsense about P40 having a chance against Zero in a normal combat without many other factors and we can all have a good time.
Amare1 wrote:And yeah, how can you question capturing Midway if the Japs win carrier battle? Those are two small islands which would be batterred to hell by the Japanese BBs and airplanes for two days, until the invasion forces are ready to land. There were no underground bunkers like Iwo Jima nor was the island heavily fortified as Tarawa. So I think the pre-invasion bombardment on the such small area would do serious damage and the capturing of an island would never be in question.
Amare1 wrote:...About the pilot training, as I said before, US did prevail in 1943 but by then the Japanese still matched them well...
..., but ''Battle of Hawaii'' that I'm trying to relive in maybe December of 1942, may give Japanese victory
.... If they had attacked US carriers, their skilled crews could have made it a ''one-hit-kill'', or without a need for the second attack.
Just have a look at Coral Sea, where thay had also a ''second unit'' pilots at hand and needed just one strike from the carriers to sink Lexington and heavily damage Yorktown, for the loss of already mentioned 43 planes.
Why wouldn't the more skilled Jap crews at Midway have better results, for the loss of slightly more aircraft? That really sounds logical.
And yeah, how can you question capturing Midway if the Japs win carrier battle? Those are two small islands which would be batterred to hell by the Japanese BBs and airplanes for two days, until the invasion forces are ready to land. There were no underground bunkers like Iwo Jima nor was the island heavily fortified as Tarawa. So I think the pre-invasion bombardment on the such small area would do serious damage and the capturing of an island would never be in question.
Amare1 wrote:... where did you get that info of P40 and F4F having equal exchange rate vs Zero? We all know that P40s fought at Dutch East Indies, Phillipinnes and New Guinea, yet they were outmatched by Zeroes every time. So where did the 1:1 ratio come from? I'd be thankful if you posted a link.
The F4F v. Zero ratio in 1942 based on Japanese losses from their records in was right around 1:1.
...However, the bulk of the fighter operations by the USAAF in 1942–43 were borne by the P-40 and the P-39. In the Pacific, these two fighters, along with the U.S. Navy's F4F Wildcat, contributed more than any other U.S. types to breaking Japanese air power during this critical period.
However, in the Dutch East Indies campaign, the 17th Pursuit Squadron (Provisional), formed from USAAF pilots evacuated from the Philippines, claimed 49 Japanese aircraft destroyed, for the loss of 17 P-40s....
USAAF and Chinese P-40 pilots performed extremely well in this theater, scoring high kill ratios against Japanese types such as the Nakajima Ki-43, Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki ("Tojo") and the Zero. The P-40 remained in use in the CBI until 1944, and was reportedly preferred over the P-51 Mustang by some US pilots flying in China.
The American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers) was integrated into the USAAF as the 23rd Fighter Group. The unit continued to fly newer model P-40s until the end of the war, racking up a high kill-to-loss ratio.
Units arriving in the China-Burma-India theater after the AVG in the 10th and 14th air forces continued to perform well with the P-40, claiming 973 kills in the theater, or 64.8 percent of all enemy aircraft shot down.
Amare1 wrote:..., but ''Battle of Hawaii'' that I'm trying to relive in maybe December of 1942, ...
Amare1 wrote:...Let's begin with Hawaii. Oil wouldn't be a problem if this is supposed to be the last operation for Japanese Navy before the ''peace''. So they would give everything they had.
The P40s efficiency grew during the successful campaigns such as Guadalcanal. It wasn't efficient before the successful campaigns. One-on-one with Zero and without improved flying tactics, it is a 10:1 ratio for Zero. It simply outflies the slower and less-manouverable plane.
P-40E-1 of 1941 (also Hawk 87A-4 and Kittyhawk IA), which are similar to the entire series of P-40E, K, and M models, are as follows (taken from The Complete Book of Fighters by William Green and Gordon Swanborough): Max speed, 362 mph
The A6M2 had a top speed of 316 m.p.h. at 16,400 ft.,...the A6M3, which appeared late in 1942..... Top speed was increased to 336 m.p.h. at 19,865 ft
Midway was less then a month after Coral Sea. How many lessons could have been learned by then? Judging by the US torpedo plane attack, very few.
Yamato and BBs from Japanese Main Fleet wouldn't attack Midway.
Four BBs of Kongo class and screening cruisers and destroyers would do the bombardment.
And the second Japanese attack on Midway island would meet AA fire which shot down 3 aircraft in 1st attack, nothing serious, and this time the Jap planes would simply drop their load onto the AA positions and silence it. Of the US fighters, only two were able to fly again, plus two whose engine failure may have been repaired. Estimated time of survival for 4 US fighters: 10 seconds.
Saratoga received them (F4F-4) and the TBM.
@ lwd. Again about oil, that's not much of a problem since they obviously have reserves and would throw everything they had.
Surely, you have improved my opinion on P40. But still its lesser manouverability is a killer and Zero takes care of him any time, any where.
Midway shore bombardment -.... Also, as stated numerous times, Yamamoto's main force was waiting for any task possible. If the defense of island would prove seriously strong, I bet he would send some of his main fleet for bombardment - possibly 2 BBs (say Ise and Hiuga).
Do you have some detailed info on Midway ground defences, link possibly.
Captain Toyama stated:"
We were going to approach the south side (of Midway), sending out landing
boats as far as the reef. We had many different kinds of landing boats but did
not think that many would be able to pass over the reefs. If they got stuck
the personnel were supposed to transfer to rubber landing boats."
''Refugees'' from US CV could only be some SBDs from Hornet which landed here. But no fighters.
Midway's AA fire was said to be ''very powerful'' but still it shot down only 3 Japs and damaged a couple of others. In case of a second attack, don't expect any more than that,
Right, the fighters did get a pass on the bombers which is how they shot down six planes from 1st strike. When the Zeroes turned back at them, it was instantly a turkey shoot. What can you expect from two remaining fighters?
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