Japanese Invasion US mainland

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Bgile » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:36 pm

lwd wrote:When did they ever do a 2,000 mile road march? Most of it not on the road. Through mountains and tundra and primeval forest?

They may have worked well in the cold but consider also that there aren't any spare parts depots or railroad lines to bring in parts or fuel for that matter. The logistics difficulties are mind boggling, I'm sure there's a log manual somewhere that tells what you could expect to support over x number of miles of two lane road. Plug in 2,000 and I'd be surprised if it were more than a handful of tanks.
Well, noone should send tanks on a 2,000 mile road march. You would probably have to lay railroad track the whole way from a port to support an offensive over that kind of distance. I was just commenting on the cold, which you said was an obstacle. There are all sorts of logistic problems which would have to be overcome.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by jonsidneyb » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:02 am

I don't think they would make it either. We would have had trouble moving equipment down to the our own lower 48 going across land as well. At that time it was easier to go by sea to more hospitable areas then go inland. That was not friendly territory at the time. How about keeping those vehicals fueled once they get a few hundred miles inland. There is not an easy way for fuel trucks to follow the tanks. The tanks are going to be having a very hard time on their own. You are going to need fuel trucks that can cover the same land.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by jonsidneyb » Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:10 am

Google map it even today and get a satalite view. Many parts of Alaska still has no roads deep inland.

You will have mountains to cross, rivers to cross, forests to cross, marshy land to cross. I don't think an invader could do it then. Today it is difficult to do in many parts.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by RF » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:06 pm

jazsa80 wrote:Can anybody think of a hypothetical scenario that could see the Japanese landing troops on the US mainland?

Even if the japanese took out the entire US navy down to the last row boat I just cant see it being possible. Anybody got any ideas?
This really depends on what sort of landing you envisage. People have responded here on the assumption that we are talking of a permanent landing rather like D Day in Normandy. Given that the ''vitals'' of the USA are orientated towards the East Coast I would doubt whether a full scale invasion of the West coast would achieve much in forcing the US to surrender, and that is assuming such a landing was possible.

But small scale commando type raids would be more feasible. German U-boats landed spies off the East coast (who were spectaculary unsuccessful) and given the larger size of some Japanese subs the landing of commando parties would have been possible. Leaving aside the risks to the submarine and the problems of co-ordinated re-embarcation, there were some worthwhile targets if the Japanese were able to get to them - docks, ships at anchor, oil refineries, railroad lines etc. And of course there were the facilities at the Pacific end of the Panama Canal.

But these operations at best would be interdictary, they would not force capitulation. For that what was needed was a weapon that could strike at the heart of the US mainland, and of the Axis powers only Germany was likely to be able to do that, with the projected ''Amerika bomber.'' Whether that of a few rockets hitting New York would have changed the course of the war won't ever be known.

The only serious Japanese attack on the mainland USA were the firebomb attacks on the Oregon pineforests and the balloon bombs of 1944, which achieved practically nothing.
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Bgile » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:35 pm

A submarine attempted to shell the fortifications on the Oregon side of the Columbia river, also. I have no idea why. Seems pointless to me. They didn't fire back, thinking it was a recon attempt, but what good would it do the Japanese to know where the guns were?

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by RF » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:31 pm

That the crews didn't fire back suggests a perceived threat on the crews part - with the idea of using the gunfire to better effect if the Japanese attempted a raid or landed a force?
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Bgile » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:34 pm

RF wrote:That the crews didn't fire back suggests a perceived threat on the crews part - with the idea of using the gunfire to better effect if the Japanese attempted a raid or landed a force?
I believe that was the commanding general's perception. The crews were just angry they didn't get to shoot back. Admittedly an i-boat was a pretty small target.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by RF » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:51 pm

The commanding general was pretty savvy then, as the Americans were conscious of the possibility of some sort of Japanese landing on the West Coast.

The I-boats, lying off the coastline would I think be a fairly largish target, given their size (they were larger than their German counterparts) and I can well understand the men wanting to shoot back.
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by skipper » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:55 pm

I can think of a [chess move] in which the Japanese could have invaded the U.S. mainland. But the move would have to be more of a reponse than a divized 12/ 1941 move. The invasion of the U.S. mainland by the Japanese could only come in the sequence of more devastating blows to America. It is important to remember that Hitler, Mussolini, and the Japanese were tactically aware of the mission that lay before them as early as 1938: if the Axis were to succeed = "they would have to be victorious as fast as the changing seasons. A long drawn out war spelled disaster from every front, and on every ocean. A successfulJapanese invasion of the American mainland could have fallen, only, under the following circumstances [or something very similar.]
[1.] German U - Boats, with newer engines - and upgraded torpedos bring merchant traffic (between America and Europe] to a virtual standstill in the spring of 1941.
[2.] Operation Barbarossa brings the Soviet Union onto its' knees; and Hitler proudly marches into Red Square on June 8,1940.
[3.] Hitler personally shoots Stalin with his own pistol; and a group of German speaking Lithuanians rule the Kremlin under a pro - fascist Russisan flag.
[4.] On August 1, 1940, gERMAN SPECIAL FORCES UNIT captures Churchill, and the P.M. is flown to Berlin.
[5.] After Churchill refuses to surrender the United Kingdom, he is tried; then put to death by a Nazi court.
[6.] On September 11, 1940; England is invaded. Starving from a lack of food and medicine, the English perseverence collapses on December 2, 1940. Hitler proudly marches through London, boosting of his ideology; and the Parliament is replaced by the new King of England, Prince Bismarck Otto Von Reichszten.
[7.] German scientists dewvelop an atomic bomb: New York City - on January 30, 1941, and Washington D.C. - on Febrauary 1, 1941 are both hit by V3 Rockets carrying nuclear bombs.
[8.] What is left of the American government moves to Omaha, Nebraska.
[9.] When America refuses to surrender, Hitler bombs Omaha on February 3, 1941.
[10]. From the deck of a Jpanese aircraft carrier; Pearl Harbor is decimated by with a V3 Rocket carrying a nuclear weapon.
[11.] Long lines of merchant vessels carrying strudel - faced German boys storm from France towards North American harbors in 1941/ 1942.
[12.] The American people travel to meet them on the beach heads. However, after Miami, Baltimore, and Philadelphia are bombed by V3 Rockets; a truce is reached preventing any further bombings.
[13.] Japanese soldiers take Alameda, CA; Long Beach, CA; and fight for parts of Seattle throughout 1942/1943, until a truce is reached before the Germans destroy another city

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Bgile » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:46 am

skipper wrote:I can think of a [chess move] in which the Japanese could have invaded the U.S. mainland. But the move would have to be more of a reponse than a divized 12/ 1941 move. The invasion of the U.S. mainland by the Japanese could only come in the sequence of more devastating blows to America. It is important to remember that Hitler, Mussolini, and the Japanese were tactically aware of the mission that lay before them as early as 1938: if the Axis were to succeed = "they would have to be victorious as fast as the changing seasons. A long drawn out war spelled disaster from every front, and on every ocean. A successfulJapanese invasion of the American mainland could have fallen, only, under the following circumstances [or something very similar.]
[1.] German U - Boats, with newer engines - and upgraded torpedos bring merchant traffic (between America and Europe] to a virtual standstill in the spring of 1941.
[2.] Operation Barbarossa brings the Soviet Union onto its' knees; and Hitler proudly marches into Red Square on June 8,1940.
[3.] Hitler personally shoots Stalin with his own pistol; and a group of German speaking Lithuanians rule the Kremlin under a pro - fascist Russisan flag.
[4.] On August 1, 1940, gERMAN SPECIAL FORCES UNIT captures Churchill, and the P.M. is flown to Berlin.
[5.] After Churchill refuses to surrender the United Kingdom, he is tried; then put to death by a Nazi court.
[6.] On September 11, 1940; England is invaded. Starving from a lack of food and medicine, the English perseverence collapses on December 2, 1940. Hitler proudly marches through London, boosting of his ideology; and the Parliament is replaced by the new King of England, Prince Bismarck Otto Von Reichszten.
[7.] German scientists dewvelop an atomic bomb: New York City - on January 30, 1941, and Washington D.C. - on Febrauary 1, 1941 are both hit by V3 Rockets carrying nuclear bombs.
[8.] What is left of the American government moves to Omaha, Nebraska.
[9.] When America refuses to surrender, Hitler bombs Omaha on February 3, 1941.
[10]. From the deck of a Jpanese aircraft carrier; Pearl Harbor is decimated by with a V3 Rocket carrying a nuclear weapon.
[11.] Long lines of merchant vessels carrying strudel - faced German boys storm from France towards North American harbors in 1941/ 1942.
[12.] The American people travel to meet them on the beach heads. However, after Miami, Baltimore, and Philadelphia are bombed by V3 Rockets; a truce is reached preventing any further bombings.
[13.] Japanese soldiers take Alameda, CA; Long Beach, CA; and fight for parts of Seattle throughout 1942/1943, until a truce is reached before the Germans destroy another city
Yes, and then the Japanese rape and pillage the US west coast as they did in china, and the eastern part becomes the basis of labor camps. Soon the Japanese and Germans are at each other's throats, and everyone lives happily ever after.

What a wonderful story! You must have enjoyed composing that immensely.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by lwd » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:55 pm

skipper wrote: ...
[1.] German U - Boats, with newer engines - and upgraded torpedos bring merchant traffic (between America and Europe] to a virtual standstill in the spring of 1941.
New egnines and tropedos are not enough to do this. If they even come close the US is probably in the war several months earlier.

[2.] Operation Barbarossa brings the Soviet Union onto its' knees; and Hitler proudly marches into Red Square on June 8,1940.
Even in the abscence of Soviet resistence it's not clear that the Heer could have reached Moscow in June of 45. Nor is it clear that the Soviets surrender at that point.
[6.] On September 11, 1940; England is invaded. Starving from a lack of food and medicine, the English perseverence collapses on December 2, 1940.
Why do you have the U-boats cutting the supply line to Britian in 41 if it surrendered in 40. In anycase a German invasion in 40 was completely incapable of long term success. It might have succeed in landing a few troops but that's about all.
[7.] German scientists dewvelop an atomic bomb: New York City - on January 30, 1941, and Washington D.C. - on Febrauary 1, 1941 are both hit by V3 Rockets carrying nuclear bombs.
The Germans weren't capable of buiding either the bomb or the V-3 at that point and wouldn't have been under any circumstances. Furthermore a rocket from that point in time would be lucky to hit the US much less a city.
[10]. From the deck of a Jpanese aircraft carrier; Pearl Harbor is decimated by with a V3 Rocket carrying a nuclear weapon.
This is getting more and more absurd as you go along.
[11.] Long lines of merchant vessels carrying strudel - faced German boys storm from France towards North American harbors in 1941/ 1942.
The only ones to make it would be those in the ships where the captains wisely surrendered to the USN before being sunk.
[13.] Japanese soldiers take Alameda, CA; Long Beach, CA; and fight for parts of Seattle throughout 1942/1943, until a truce is reached before the Germans destroy another city
With what? Even if there was no USN the Japanese couldn't do this successfully in that time frame. And if they did manage to make it to the US they wouldn't have the forces to acomplish anything. As for Seattle??? Have you looked at a map???

Most boards such as this prefer at least some basis in reality. Your post doesn't qualify.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by RF » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:28 pm

skipper wrote:I can think of a [chess move] in which the Japanese could have invaded the U.S. mainland.
Yes, but the detail of your post is logistically impossible, and none of the Axis leaders were chess players.

However I do believe that some elements in the IJA did consider the possibility of annexing Washington state to the Japanese Empire along with Hawaii. But this was part of a wish list, with no details for an actual invasion.
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by skipper » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:00 am

I thought that I was responding to a a hypothetical scenario: "Japanese Invasion of US Mainland." The only way that Japan could have invaded the US Mainland would have to had involved, first the use of of German I.C.B.M.'s [Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles] smashing against American cities. Had the Second World War carried on for a few months longer it is very likely thathe Nazi's would have found the scientific means to "split the atom."
It isn't impossible to picture a German missile(s) crashing into a city on the American Eastern Seaboard.
In the midst of the fire bombing of German cities by the U.K./U.S. Army Air Forces; the mamoth Red Army raped it's way into Germany from the falling Eastern Front. While all of this was happening to the German people: allied armies were blasting their way into the Reich Land from Italian boot. At sea, Germany lost all of her surface fleet and U - Boats to the gargantuan Anglo - Naval Fleets.
Despite all the unsurmountable difficulties facing Germany; the Germans created the first fighter jets; the V2 Rocket, and launched a ghost - like Blitzkrieg into the Battle of the Buldge [ The counteroffensive came within 27 hours of knocking the allies out of Europe.
An Invasion of the American mainland, by the Japanese, would have followed in the aftermath of the German nuclear attacks on the United States. The Second World War would have stretched into the 1950's.
Had the war stretched on: Moscow, London, Berlin, Tokyo, and Washington would have all been destroyed by nuclear weapons. Had the Second World War gone on [because of the discovery atomic weapon by Germany] we would still be fighting.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by lwd » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:17 pm

skipper wrote:I thought that I was responding to a a hypothetical scenario: "Japanese Invasion of US Mainland." The only way that Japan could have invaded the US Mainland would have to had involved, first the use of of German I.C.B.M.'s [Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles] smashing against American cities.
It is hypothetical but we like to keep our hypotheticals grounded in at least some reality. German ICBM's are not the only way by any means. If you are that far into fantasy why not just have them used Aldarian matter transmitters?
Had the Second World War carried on for a few months longer it is very likely thathe Nazi's would have found the scientific means to "split the atom."
But they were years away from a bomb and even further away from a funtional ICBM that could carry an atomic bomb of their construction.
It isn't impossible to picture a German missile(s) crashing into a city on the American Eastern Seaboard.
In the time frame you suggest the proability is fanishingly small. Then you add a reliable accurate one containing an atomic warhead and it gets even more improbable.
... Despite all the unsurmountable difficulties facing Germany; the Germans created the first fighter jets;
One might argue because of it but of course the point is argueable. And while they may have had jet fighters they weren't anything the allies would have considered fit for deployment.
the V2 Rocket,
A technical achievement but as a worthwhile military devices a waste of resources.
and launched a ghost - like Blitzkrieg into the Battle of the Buldge [ The counteroffensive came within 27 hours of knocking the allies out of Europe.
Sorry but they didn't come any where near "knocking the allies out of Europe". Indeed the Battle of the Bulge gained its limited initial success because it was unexpected. It was unexpected at least in part because the allies didn't think the Germans would make such a dumb strategic move.
An Invasion of the American mainland, by the Japanese, would have followed in the aftermath of the German nuclear attacks on the United States.
Ie never. This just so far out that I wonder why any one would even bother to post it.
The Second World War would have stretched into the 1950's.
Had the war stretched on: Moscow, London, Berlin, Tokyo, and Washington would have all been destroyed by nuclear weapons. Had the Second World War gone on [because of the discovery atomic weapon by Germany] we would still be fighting.
No. There was no way the war would last until the 50's. Since the axis didn't and weren't going to have the bomb for years if it stretches out into even 46 you get multiple a bombs each month landing on axis targets and with or without them famine will ravage them. London, Moscow, and Washington were in absolutely no danger of being hit by atomic weapons. Even if the Germans get atomic weapons they don't have the delivery systems or the capablity of manufacturing more than a hand full.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by skipper » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:23 am

Von Brahm, the creator behind the V2; was captured and sent to America at the end of the Second World War. Some of his assistants were captured by the Red Army and sent to the Soviet Union. These captured scientists provided the U.S. and USSR with the technological means to create missiles. The resulting I.C.B.M's kept the world out of a Third World War under what is referred as "mutual assurance of destruction."
Hitler was moments away from possessing am I.C.B.M himself. Allied soldiers discovered the V3 building sites in 1945. Hitler was vocally promising the arrival of a "secret weapon throughout 1944. He wasn't talking about a atom bomb, as much as he was talking about the V1, V2, and soon to come V3. Loaded with a "dirty warhead," or a bacterial encasing: thank God for Patton and the G.I.'s

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