Japanese Invasion US mainland

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skipper
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by skipper » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:25 am

The V2 Rocket used by the Germans, beginning in 1944, was light years ahead of anything the communists or the western democracies had in their arsenals. While certainly, America used enough bombers - and bombs to kill 25 million human beings (mostly innocent noncombatants) during the Second World War: "the numerous carpet bombings did not paralyze the infrastructure of the Reich.
A V2 Rocket is a missile one stage [one V3] from being an ICBM. And the Germans were very close to developing an atomic bomb. "Cones" were created to fit into the final stage of the V3. The cones were constreucted of carbon materials capable of carrying a "dirty bomb."
But as the war appeared to be hopeless; from his bunker: "Hitler ordered 'not' to fire the munitions. The Fuerer understood at that point that the German people would, in the end, need the help of Churchill and Truman in chasing Stalin out of Europe.

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RF
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by RF » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:53 pm

skipper, I cansee what you are arguing, and not withstanding the points made by lwd there are two points Iwould make.

The first point is that a very close co-ordination of German and Japanese military resources and forces would be required, and logically that is what Hitler and Tojo should have done. The reality was that there was no such close collaboration, one reason why the Axis lost the war.

The Germans had two separate projects for attacking the US mainland. The first was the ''Amerika bomber'' a very large long range bomber aircraft designed to fly the Atlantic to the US east coast and back again. A prototype of these aircraft was acually flown across the Atlantic (I believe in March 1944) and reached a point about ten miles short of New York city, before successfully returning to France. This aircaft was able to fly at very high altitude, almost on the edge of the stratosphere, and was undetected by the Americans who did not find out about it until they seized the plans for this aircraft in 1945.
The second project was a two stage rocket, with bomb payload, which was given the designation letters A4. This was sometimes referred to as the ''New York rocket.'' This didn't really get beyond the drawing board, even though the film ''Operation Crossbow'' had the Germans developing a working prototype.
There was no V3 as such.

These weapons could have been developed and deployed by the Germans, but I think that a pre-condition for doing so is that Britain is already defeated and occuppied by the Germans. This means no D-Day, no US bombing of Germany etc.

In that situation, if Hawaii is occupied by the Japanese, then a limited Japanese invasion of the west coast of the US could be possible. But if the Axis leaders were the strategic geniuses they would need to be to do this they could go one stage further. Get Mexico to join the Axis and invade southern California and Texas. Japanese naval forces and carrier planes could then reinforce the Mexican attack on the west coast. However there would be a requirement for the almost complete destruction of the US Navy for this to happen. Furthermore if the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica could base long range bombers in Mexico they could give direct support to the Japanese.
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Bgile » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:32 pm

I want to know about this bomber. I've never heard of it except people occasionally claiming there was one. What was it's designation other than "Amerika Bomber"?

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Lutscha » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:05 pm

It was the Ju 390 and this flight to New York never took place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390

Tme Me 264 could reach the US although it would not have done much good (or bad): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_264

The Japanese project was more of a pipe dream since Japan could never have build the required engines (5k HP). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_G10N

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by skipper » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:47 pm

RF, I appreciate the your post. However, I will challenge the idea that the Japs and the Germans did not have a close relationship. For example, engines and components of the Meizerschmidt jet were sent to Japan via U - Boats in 1944/ 45.
Elementary history books treat Hitler like a Sergeant Schultz character. When in truth, Hitler was a philosopher, using the bully pulpit to save Western Civilization from economic ruin.
I am not anti - semitic; but there is a non - P.C. way of looking at the Axis Powers. Germany [in the wake of destruction] nearly won the Second World War with modern ingenuity. It is not talked about: but German jets ended the daytime bombing of German cities. Had the Japanese been able to reproduce the Meiszerschmidt jet they may have ended the daytime raids over Japan.
Also [remember, I am not anti - semitic] there was no "six million holocaust. To To identify, capture, and kill six million individuals' would take almost century. And a century I believe the holocaust happened [ six thousand] but not the ghoulish multi - million death camp propaganda. However, we were able to create Israel [a western allie near the oil] ; and make Hitleris look like devil.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by tommy303 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:15 am

Also [remember, I am not anti - semitic] there was no "six million holocaust. To To identify, capture, and kill six million individuals' would take almost century. And a century I believe the holocaust happened [ six thousand] but not the ghoulish multi - million death camp propaganda. However, we were able to create Israel [a western allie near the oil] ; and make Hitleris look like devil.
You might try reading the sworn and signed statement of Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz-Berkinau. He estimated that 2,5 million were killed in that KL complex alone, and that another half million or so died of disease or starvation:

http://tweb.lisd.net/jeremy_millhouse/T ... y/hess.pdf

As to whether or not the introduction of jets even slowed the allied bomber offensive--you might want to read the auto-biography of General der Flieger Adolf Galland. The introduction of jets was too few and too late, and with insufficient quantities of fuel. Of 1200 Me262s manufactured, only about 200 ever made it into combat and the attrition rate was high in the few jet units formed. By the end of February 1945 the Luftwaffe was all but grounded due to lack of fuel and allied bombers flew almost unhindered over the Reich.
Last edited by tommy303 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:17 am

A axis invasion to the US is just a wet dream. As far as I know Hitler never intended such a thing and the Japanese reach their maximum expansion point 10 minutes after Corregidor fell. The logistic problems to sustain Midway, or worse, Hawai were beyond Japan capabilities. On the other hand the Japanese army was colonial style: a lot of infantry supported by some light tanks that make look the Shermans as Tigers. I do believe that they would have big trouble when landing near Los Angeles with the gangs there. Nope: Japan cannot make it.

Now Germany. Nope. They need a fleet and that´s a thing they lack. To terrorize with their wunder weapons? Maybe. But they need a couple more years, well into 1947 to get a viable V-3 and those super jet bombers and, maybe, the bomb. But by then the US will have it so it´s detente.

Not a good scenario. US will likely invade the rest of America for military purposes which would have been a bonanza for all our banana republics but that´s as far as I can see it.

Obviously in an scenario in which Germany is not defeated by the ruskies by 1945 I cannot see any clear victor: maybe a truce sometime 1944-45 and a world distributed in a quite different way: nazis with Europe; ruskies with central Asia; Japs in the Indian and half the Pacific and the US with the other half of the Pacific and all of America. The Atlantic is neutral and Africa is part of what remains of British Empire with India. That way the muslims will be much better controled by the turn of the XXI century.
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by BlackBirdZGTR » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:40 am

I do believe that they would have big trouble when landing near Los Angeles with the gangs there. Nope: Japan cannot make it.
Lol gangs? What decade is this?

Anyways, a thing people do not realize... Say Japan is winning the war, they take Midway, isolate Australia, knock out the Panama canal for over a year, take every military base and confine the US to the west coast and Hawaii and even Hawaii is under peril as a result of constant harassment by Japanese submarines. How do you think the average American would respond to the situation? Of course there will be low morale and little faith in the US military; but as a result of it i predict a massive spike in gun sales among Americans in the west coast, remember this is a time when gun control did not exist and buying guns was about as easy as buying candy.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by José M. Rico » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:30 pm

skipper wrote: Also [remember, I am not anti - semitic] there was no "six million holocaust. To To identify, capture, and kill six million individuals' would take almost century. And a century I believe the holocaust happened [ six thousand] but not the ghoulish multi - million death camp propaganda. However, we were able to create Israel [a western allie near the oil] ; and make Hitleris look like devil.
I won't accept comments like this on this forum, and this is the only warning you will get.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:28 pm

BlackBirdZGTR,

What have you not explained to any of us is how the Japanese, with their very limited resources, will accomplish all these. This is primary thing that must be solved in order to jump to following logical step.

Regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by lwd » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:38 pm

skipper wrote:The V2 Rocket used by the Germans, beginning in 1944, was light years ahead of anything the communists or the western democracies had in their arsenals.
In advance of perhaps. As far as a useful weapon, no.
A V2 Rocket is a missile one stage [one V3] from being an ICBM.
Not really. Especially if you are talking about a useful weapon.
And the Germans were very close to developing an atomic bomb.
Left to their own they might have had one by 1950 or so. Or not.
"Cones" were created to fit into the final stage of the V3. The cones were constreucted of carbon materials capable of carrying a "dirty bomb."
The weapon most often called the V3 was a super gun. There was no official V3 rocket. Just what are you referring to and where are you getting your info?
"Hitler ordered 'not' to fire the munitions. The Fuerer understood at that point that the German people would, in the end, need the help of Churchill and Truman in chasing Stalin out of Europe.
Where did you get this info? It's completely at odds with what I've read of Hitler near the end and I've read no indication that he even had these weapons. Even if he was of the opinion you state why wouldn't he have fired them at the Soviets?

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by lwd » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:42 pm

RF wrote:...
In that situation, if Hawaii is occupied by the Japanese, then a limited Japanese invasion of the west coast of the US could be possible. But if the Axis leaders were the strategic geniuses they would need to be to do this they could go one stage further. Get Mexico to join the Axis and invade southern California and Texas. Japanese naval forces and carrier planes could then reinforce the Mexican attack on the west coast. However there would be a requirement for the almost complete destruction of the US Navy for this to happen. Furthermore if the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica could base long range bombers in Mexico they could give direct support to the Japanese.
Not really. Take a look at:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm
In particular:
Warship Production
United States CV/CVL/CVE BB CA/CL DD Escorts Subs Japan CV/CVL/CVE BB CA/CL DD Escorts Subs
1941 - 2 1 2 - 2 1941 6 1 - - ? -
1942 18 4 8 82 - 34 1942 4 1 4 10 ? 61
1943 65 2 11 128 298 55 1943 2 - 3 12 ? 37
1944 45 2 14 74 194 81 1944 5 - 2 24 ? 39
1945 13 - 14 63 6 31 1945 - - - 17 ? 30
Total 141 10 48 349 498 203 Total 17 2 9 63 ? 167
The board may mess up the formatting the table is very readable at the site.

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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by BlackBirdZGTR » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:50 pm

BlackBirdZGTR,

What have you not explained to any of us is how the Japanese, with their very limited resources, will accomplish all these. This is primary thing that must be solved in order to jump to following logical step.

Regards,
I thought i did not need to explain since it was not even possible for the Japanese to accomplish such a feat in the first place. I was just stating how the US population might react if Japan is winning the war, not only would the Japanese have to face these logistical problems they would also be facing an armed population.

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RF
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by RF » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:33 pm

skipper wrote:RF, I appreciate the your post. However, I will challenge the idea that the Japs and the Germans did not have a close relationship. For example, engines and components of the Meizerschmidt jet were sent to Japan via U - Boats in 1944/ 45.
The example you cite is on a very small scale - basically barter trade.

The relationship between Hitler and the Japanese was very distant and laden with distrust. The Tripartite Pact was an agreement of convenience, signed unknowingly by both parties to achieve opposite purposes, rather like the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact. Hitler himself in 1941 issued a War Directive entitled ''Co-operation with Japan'' in which it was made clear the limitations that were to be placed on the Japanese regarding access to German technology - especially radar. There was nothing like the level of co-operation that existed between Britain and the US during WW2, where they created a combined chiefs of staff for the war in the West.
Furthermore many of the Germans in the Far East have recorded their disgust at the atitude of particulary the IJA towards co-operation with them and Germany as a whole. The crew of hilfskreuzer Michel, when they called at Batavia and Singapore, discovered that both they and the crews of blockade runners were kept on board their ships as if under house arrest, not even allowed to display the swastika flag. The Italians in the Far East suffered even greater contempt, and then retribution when Italy surrendered. Even fascist Spain was not treated with respect, Franco broke off diplomatic relations when the IJA invaded the Spanish Consulate in Manila and murdered Spanish nationals.

Finally can I make one particular point. Freedom of Speech should be regarded as an absolute, no matter how offensive or preposterous what is being said. If people claim the ''holocaust'' never happened I say prove it with hard indisputable evidence. Lets have this issue out in the open. Any attempt to censor or blank out such claims is in my view counterproductive and leaves the danger that such claims gain credibility, that we democrats have something to hide.
As there is nothing to hide, such revisionist views should be openly challenged and exposed for the tosh that they really are.
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RF
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Re: Japanese Invasion US mainland

Post by RF » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:49 pm

lwd,

If you reread the my post that you quoted you will see that I laid down the pre-condition that the US Navy would have to be destroyed before a Japanese invasion of the US mainland could happen. You quote US naval war production. My point is that all of this production would have to be sent to the bottom of the sea by the IJN.
How that were to happen is the great and unlikely imponderable. But its achievement can only be the starting point for Jap invasion, the conditions for which is central to the subject in the title of this thread. Yes, what is being discussed is a military fantasy. But it would be no more a fantasy than to say in March 1936 that the re-occupation of the Rhineland by 600 German troops armed with musical instruments could possibly culminate in the rapid fall of France in a little over four years time...... Stranger things have happened.
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