Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
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Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
Much as I thought two KGV's had a very good prospect of success vs. Yamato, I'm inclined to think along the same lines in this scenario.
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
In this scenario the Allies have a very good chance to sink the Bismarck, only two to one, with the same basic armament and armor. The difference with the Pacafic scenario is that the Yamato has so much more armor and calibre guns, that is is a stretch to see the two KGV's surviving long in close quarters. In this scenario, if the Bismarck was able to get her aim on quickly like with Hood, then there goes one and it's a fair fight again. In this scenario:
50% chance that Bismarck will not kill either French BB's
75% chance that Bismarck will atleast kill one ship before the end of the duel
25% chance that Bismarck will climb out of it victorious
5% chance that Bismarck will sail away undamaged
(Don't try adding those up, the percentages are for the specific questions only, there isn't 155% in a WWII scenario, unless it's Lutjens against a functioning atom bomb...)
50% chance that Bismarck will not kill either French BB's
75% chance that Bismarck will atleast kill one ship before the end of the duel
25% chance that Bismarck will climb out of it victorious
5% chance that Bismarck will sail away undamaged
(Don't try adding those up, the percentages are for the specific questions only, there isn't 155% in a WWII scenario, unless it's Lutjens against a functioning atom bomb...)
AND THE SEA SHALL GRANT EACH MAN NEW HOPE, AS SLEEP BRINGS DREAMS.
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
I am having difficulty following this thread.
How are these percentages worked out?
On what basis would two KGV's be likely to dispose of Yamato?
How are these percentages worked out?
On what basis would two KGV's be likely to dispose of Yamato?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
If what you are asking is what do we think of the percentages here's my guestimate.
I'd put this percentage quite a bit higher. Actually sinking another BB with BB caliber shell fire is not all that easy. In this case if Bismark seriously damages one of the French ships she needs to turn her attention to the other one. If she takes both out is it worth while to continue to pound them?Legend wrote:...
50% chance that Bismarck will not kill either French BB's
See above75% chance that Bismarck will atleast kill one ship before the end of the duel
I don't have a good guess at this one. Depends a lot on circumstances and what is considered a victory.25% chance that Bismarck will climb out of it victorious
If they decide to fight then I'd put this a lot lower. I'd expect one of the French BBs to land at least one hit.5% chance that Bismarck will sail away undamaged
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
I agree with allot of that, I was just making a quick judgement. Two equal calibre and number-of-guns battleships against Bismarck is a formidable scenario for her. From what I understand the two French ladies were fairly good at target aquisition, better than the British KVG's atleast (no offense). They do have a limited firing window, not being able to fire with the main battery in the back 90deg or so.
Now that I really think about it, I see:
1. Begin duel
2. The French have an advantage in numbers and having all their batteries facing BS in the beginning...
2. Bismarck turns broadside to put a full battery on her enemy (Lindeman is in charge!)
3. Bismarck gets the first hits on the fast approaching enemy, hitting one of the Frenchies and knocking out half of the Armament.
3. Despite incoming and hitting shells the DQ and SB contingue to pour shells toward the BS.
4. Bismarck is starting to take hits from one of the French BB's, but the other is almost dead in the water with both her turrets out and her bridge blown to smithereens. Lindehman switches fire to the closer threat now.
4. DQ is close enough to be making consistant hits on BS, and BS is close to getting her range on DQ...
5. Bismarck gets her first hit on DQ, but Anton is out, secondaries out, and her Arado hanger made into swiss cheese.
5. DQ is hit in the stern, nothing bad yet, but the rudders are sluggish.
6. One of the two makes a critical hit next: Bismarck has only three turrets left, but her fire control is still good. Dunkerque is still in good condition and not ready to give up, but getting closer to a Bismarck with good aim... who makes the next shot?
Now that I really think about it, I see:
1. Begin duel
2. The French have an advantage in numbers and having all their batteries facing BS in the beginning...
2. Bismarck turns broadside to put a full battery on her enemy (Lindeman is in charge!)
3. Bismarck gets the first hits on the fast approaching enemy, hitting one of the Frenchies and knocking out half of the Armament.
3. Despite incoming and hitting shells the DQ and SB contingue to pour shells toward the BS.
4. Bismarck is starting to take hits from one of the French BB's, but the other is almost dead in the water with both her turrets out and her bridge blown to smithereens. Lindehman switches fire to the closer threat now.
4. DQ is close enough to be making consistant hits on BS, and BS is close to getting her range on DQ...
5. Bismarck gets her first hit on DQ, but Anton is out, secondaries out, and her Arado hanger made into swiss cheese.
5. DQ is hit in the stern, nothing bad yet, but the rudders are sluggish.
6. One of the two makes a critical hit next: Bismarck has only three turrets left, but her fire control is still good. Dunkerque is still in good condition and not ready to give up, but getting closer to a Bismarck with good aim... who makes the next shot?
AND THE SEA SHALL GRANT EACH MAN NEW HOPE, AS SLEEP BRINGS DREAMS.
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Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
Again: let´s say that this thread is rethorical. For waht we know, Bismarck could have win them both.
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
I think that what Legend says is logical, however I don't think the German commander would want to play it in the way Legend would have Lindemann do.
For starters if I were the Germans I would want to separate the two French ships, and deal with them one at a time. So Bismarck heading into attack would not be an acceptable option. Instead both sides would be playing for position, action would only be joined when one side makes a mistake.....
So let us suppose Villeneuvre commands the French, and let someone like Nelson command the Germans - I think Marschall or Hoffmann might work out the required approach and attack angles.....
For starters if I were the Germans I would want to separate the two French ships, and deal with them one at a time. So Bismarck heading into attack would not be an acceptable option. Instead both sides would be playing for position, action would only be joined when one side makes a mistake.....
So let us suppose Villeneuvre commands the French, and let someone like Nelson command the Germans - I think Marschall or Hoffmann might work out the required approach and attack angles.....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
Okay. Bismarck and Tirpitz are heading... South? Maybe making a run to the south to... take out a big convoy. The two Frenchies hear and set sail out of the Strait of Gibraltar, hitting the two raiders coming from Brest from the side. The Bismarck and Tirpitz are sailing in standard German formation, one after the other. The French know this and have their ships alongside each other, so all their guns can fire instead of just the front ship. Bismarck and Tirpitz are technically crossing the T, but the DQ and SB know this and are designed with their armor all in front and with both ships firing. I would think the two Germans would turn SE then, coming closer to the southern ship while making the southern one have to slow down or the northern one fall behind the other. The Germans would gain a chance here to concentrate fire on the southern BB.
Would the 13in shells the DQ and SB had be enough to crack the BS and TZ's armor schemes efficiently?
Would the 13in shells the DQ and SB had be enough to crack the BS and TZ's armor schemes efficiently?
AND THE SEA SHALL GRANT EACH MAN NEW HOPE, AS SLEEP BRINGS DREAMS.
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
I don't think the French would go after B&T with D&S. After all, the German ships are roughly 1.5 times as large.
In a scenario B vs D&S the advantage is probably with the French. They would be going a high risk though if closing in, as their belts are insufficient to stop the 38cm projectiles. At longer range, the French would probably be at an advantage, with similar protection, but twice the rate of fire.
In a scenario B vs D&S the advantage is probably with the French. They would be going a high risk though if closing in, as their belts are insufficient to stop the 38cm projectiles. At longer range, the French would probably be at an advantage, with similar protection, but twice the rate of fire.
Re: Dunkerque and Strasbourg vs. Bismarck
This is an interesting scenario - would the French keep the range open, assuming the Germans do not seek to avoid action - or close, with the risk of losing both ships?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.