RF wrote:
This does need to be qualified - otherwise why have secondary batteries? [....]
With respect to Bismarck it should be noted that Lutjens ordered POW to be engaged by the 5.9's while the 15 inch fired on Hood. Logically the less well armoured Hood should be a better target for these guns yet Lutjens considered that they were good enough to make an impression on a KGV...
Indeed, yet they were of no value in real combat. Perhaps the designers expected better performance from them, but in reality they accomplished exactly squat.
dunmunro wrote:The 5.25in was an effective DP weapon that PoW used to shoot down Italian TBs in Sept 1941, and she managed to damage 10 of the 16 high level bombers, two seriously, that attacked Force Z. According to Lundstrom the USN did't do any better at Coral Sea, Midway or Eastern Solomons than Force Z, despite the much larger number of AA capable ships (the RN DDs in Force Z had no AA FC systems).
... At Eastern Solomons (Aug 1942), the IJN lost 60 planes in combat , out of which at least 15-20 destroyed by AA gunfire. The AA gunfire was s dense that at least 5 US fighters were also destroyed in the barrage. "The North Carolina fired 841 rounds of 5-inch (127 mm) (38 caliber) shells, 1037 rounds of 1.1-inch ammunition, 7425 rounds of 20-mm shells, and 8641 rounds of .50 caliber machine gun bullets during the attack" [total AA guns of North Carolina in Aug 1942: 20x127mm, 24x28mm, 40x20mm Oerlikon, 12x12.7mm ]
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By the way, do you know how many AA guns were actualy fitted to Prince of Wales ? I came across multiple variants... And I don't know which is the correct one.
From G&D it would appear she carried 7 x octuple 2pdr, 8 x single 20mm Oerlikon, 1 x single 40mm Bofors, and of course the 8x2 5.25" guns... Other sources mention 5 x octuple 2pdr, 4 x quad 0.5" Vickers MGs and the rest stays the same.
Lundstrom has carefully analysed IJNAF records and according to him, USN AA shot down 4 IJN aircraft at Eastern Solomons ( Black Shoe Carrier Admiral and First Team).
According to G&D PoW has 6 x octuple pom-poms, 8 x 20mm oerlikons and 1 x 40mm bofors, Middlebrook and Mahoney state the same IIRC, while R&R state the same, but they don't mention any 20mm guns, but we know from PoW's action report that there was some 20mm guns aboard, at the time of her loss.
dunmunro wrote:
Lundstrom has carefully analysed IJNAF records and according to him, USN AA shot down 4 IJN aircraft at Eastern Solomons ( Black Shoe Carrier Admiral and First Team).
Well, anything is possible.
Reading through the USN action reports of the battle a much higher number of IJN planes appear to have been destroyed by AA gunfire, especialy as the first wave (42 planes) was not intercepted in time by the F4F Wildcats of the CAP. In a ferocious battle, 25 of the incoming Japanese planes were destroyed, along with at least 5 US fighters guned down by AA fire . 5 more IJN planes were lost on the way back because of heavy damage.
NOrth Carolina alone reported 7 - 14 kills... Eneterprise's gunners reported 15 :)
However, it's likely a decent number of attackers were gunned down by AA fire.
According to G&D PoW has 6 x octuple pom-poms, 8 x 20mm oerlikons and 1 x 40mm bofors, Middlebrook and Mahoney state the same IIRC, while R&R state the same, but they don't mention any 20mm guns, but we know from PoW's action report that there was some 20mm guns aboard, at the time of her loss.
... But weren't the 4 quad 0.5" replaced with 2 octuple 2pdr ?
.. ANyway, the information I posted above, with PRince of Wales having "1/4th to 1/5th of a late war US BB " in terms of AA artillery is not accurate.
A better comparison would put HMS PRince of Wales in her Dec 1941 AA configuration at about 30% of the AA capability of a early-1944 Iowa class battleship (1/3rd )
The total AA artillery of force Z was probably:
6 x 8 2pdr + 8 x 20mm Oerlikon + 1 x 40mm Bofors + 16x5.25" on HMS Prince of WAles
3 x 8 2pdr + 8 x 20mm Oerlikon + 4x4 0.5" MGs + 8 x 102mm on HMS Repulse
The destroyers had 6 - 10 machine guns each.
dunmunro wrote:
Lundstrom has carefully analysed IJNAF records and according to him, USN AA shot down 4 IJN aircraft at Eastern Solomons ( Black Shoe Carrier Admiral and First Team).
Well, anything is possible.
Reading through the USN action reports of the battle a much higher number of IJN planes appear to have been destroyed by AA gunfire, especialy as the first wave (42 planes) was not intercepted in time by the F4F Wildcats of the CAP. In a ferocious battle, 25 of the incoming Japanese planes were destroyed, along with at least 5 US fighters guned down by AA fire . 5 more IJN planes were lost on the way back because of heavy damage.
NOrth Carolina alone reported 7 - 14 kills... Eneterprise's gunners reported 15 :)
However, it's likely a decent number of attackers were gunned down by AA fire.
According to G&D PoW has 6 x octuple pom-poms, 8 x 20mm oerlikons and 1 x 40mm bofors, Middlebrook and Mahoney state the same IIRC, while R&R state the same, but they don't mention any 20mm guns, but we know from PoW's action report that there was some 20mm guns aboard, at the time of her loss.
... But weren't the 4 quad 0.5" replaced with 2 octuple 2pdr ?
NC had 7 accepted AA kills. IJN records are quite accurate in terms of losses for Eastern Solomons, according to Lundstrom. 24 Vals were lost, along with 9 Zeros. 8 of the Vals got lost and ditched, 4 were shot down by AA, 12 were lost to fighters as were the 9 Zeros (which shows the intensity of the USN fighter defense) - the USN put over 50 fighters in the air and they intercepted the IJN before and after their attack on the USN carriers. Many of the IJN and USN aircraft shot each other down close to the USN carriers, and were then claimed as AA kills.
The quad .5in were never fitted but PoW was fitted with rocket launchers which were removed prior to Operation Halberd and replaced with 2 additional octuple pom-poms, making 6 altogether.
dunmunro wrote:
The quad .5in were never fitted but PoW was fitted with rocket launchers which were removed prior to Operation Halberd and replaced with 2 additional octuple pom-poms, making 6 altogether.
well... I counted as follows:
3 x octuple 2 pdr by design
2 x octuple 2pdr instead of the 2 x quad Vickers (1939)
2 x octuple 2pdr instead of the UP projectors (1941)
dunmunro wrote:
NC had 7 accepted AA kills. IJN records are quite accurate in terms of losses for Eastern Solomons, according to Lundstrom. 24 Vals were lost, along with 9 Zeros. 8 of the Vals got lost and ditched, 4 were shot down by AA, 12 were lost to fighters as were the 9 Zeros (which shows the intensity of the USN fighter defense) - the USN put over 50 fighters in the air and they intercepted the IJN before and after their attack on the USN carriers. Many of the IJN and USN aircraft shot each other down close to the USN carriers, and were then claimed as AA kills.
The 27 Vals dove un the US task force without much opposition, as much of the CAP failed to intercept before the strike, and the others were busy fighitng the Zeros
...At least 4 Vals attacked North Carolina, and all were destroyed by the AA gunfire of the warships.
...At least 9 Vals attacked the Enterprise, and 5 were destroyed (did not pull up). 3 hits were obtained on Enterprise.
Total AA force protecting Enterprise: BB NOrth Carolina, CA Portland, CA Antlanta, 6 DDs.
alecsandros wrote:Indeed, yet they (secondary or middle artillery batteries) were of no value in real combat. Perhaps the designers expected better performance from them, but in reality they accomplished exactly squat.
No they did have some significance on the course of battles during WWII. Gneisenau hit the Ardent with its first 5.9" salvo from a range of 15km. Both destroyers were sunk by 5.9" fire. At GCII the first hit scored on South Dakota was from the 6" secondary battery of Kirishima. It was a first salvo direct hit from a range of 9,000 meters. It hit South Dakota's foretop taking out the main firecontrol director, all the foretop radars, and radar plot. A pretty significant hit. It was much like the 6" hit on Graf Spee's foretop which altered the course of that battle. Most of the hits to South Dakota were done by 5" and 6" shells. The hit on Hiei which crippled it was reportly a 5" hit (although I question this theory and believe it far more likely it was the torpedo hit from friendly fire).
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
I also thought about Second Guadalcanal. Washington surely plastered Kirishima with enough 5" shells...
But the importance of those hits remained low, in the course of teh battle. Similarly, South Dakota was put out of the battle not by Kirishima's hits, but by her own electrical faults which left her defenseless.
My opinion is that the secondary batteries were of little use during teh war in battleship vs battleship battles. And if we're thinking about BB vs BB battles fought at normal ranges (beyond 12-14km), their importance decreases to zero.
dunmunro wrote:
NC had 7 accepted AA kills. IJN records are quite accurate in terms of losses for Eastern Solomons, according to Lundstrom. 24 Vals were lost, along with 9 Zeros. 8 of the Vals got lost and ditched, 4 were shot down by AA, 12 were lost to fighters as were the 9 Zeros (which shows the intensity of the USN fighter defense) - the USN put over 50 fighters in the air and they intercepted the IJN before and after their attack on the USN carriers. Many of the IJN and USN aircraft shot each other down close to the USN carriers, and were then claimed as AA kills.
The 27 Vals dove un the US task force without much opposition, as much of the CAP failed to intercept before the strike, and the others were busy fighitng the Zeros
...At least 4 Vals attacked North Carolina, and all were destroyed by the AA gunfire of the warships.
...At least 9 Vals attacked the Enterprise, and 5 were destroyed (did not pull up). 3 hits were obtained on Enterprise.
Total AA force protecting Enterprise: BB NOrth Carolina, CA Portland, CA Antlanta, 6 DDs.
Here's a quote from Lundstrom's First Team:
From collating reports. some tentative statements regarding the attack on TF-16 can be made. Up to this point twenty-seven F4Fs (twelve VF, fifteen VF-5) engaged the enemy strike. estimated by the Americans to number thirtysix dive bombers and twelve fighters. Their victory credits so far numbered seventeen VB and seven VF: (VF-5 ten VB, three VF; VF-6 seven VB, four VF). CAP losses totaled five F4Fs and pilots (three VF-5, two VF-6). AA gunners claimed twenty-seven enemy planes: Enterprise fifteen, North Carolina seven, Portland one, BaJch two. Monssen one, and Crayson one. Of twenty-seven carrier bombers, two fell prior to pushing over, about eighteen attacked the Enterprise and seven the North Carolina. Their losses up to this point amounted to ten (seven Shokaku, three Zuikaku), most likely six to fighters and four by AA. One Shokaku Zero (whose pilot, Hayashi, survived) and probably one Zuikaku fighter also succumbed.
The Japanese Fight Their Way Out
Apparently eleven Shokaku and six Zuikaku carrier bombers, flus Shikaku and five Zuikaku Zeros survived the bomb runs against TF-16. However, many enemy aircraft barred the way out. including CAP F4Fs. IAP SBDs, returning search planes low on fuel, and strike planes. The first encounters in this phase of the battle took place at low altitude near TF-16...
Only 27 IJN Vals (along with 10 Zero escorts) attacked and of these 7 attacked NC in two waves of 3 and 4. Six of the Vals were brought down by fighters prior or during their attack runs and 4 by AA. The 17 surviving Vals then had to face an intense encounter with USN aircraft to finally depart. USN aircraft made a total of 52 aerial kill claims. Lundstrom assesses that 7 more Vals were lost to USN aircraft while departing after their attacks, so USN aircraft made 52 kill claims but only brought down 17 IJN aircraft (13 Vals and 4 Zeros).
I know that Lundstrom has intensely analysed the battle using both IJN and USN records while we only have access to USN records.
alecsandros wrote: Similarly, South Dakota was put out of the battle not by Kirishima's hits, but by her own electrical faults which left her defenseless.
That's not correct. The electrical fault occured much sooner, when SD was still east of Savo. By the time it was illuminated by Kirishima nearly 40 minutes had elasped and SD had already restored its electrical power. In fact it was SD setting it own scout planes on fire when firing on an American destroyer -after the lights were back on- which attracted the attention of the Japanese. The Kirishima's secondary battery hit to SD's foretop was what set things in motion that lead to SD becoming defenseless once again. Several more small caliber hits slicing through the superstructure cut electrical cabling; causing short circuits and a series of power failures once again. They also cut down many officers and men. It was a 14" hit against Number 3 barbet which caused the main battery to lose electrical power, taking out the entire main battery forward and aft. It was very much Kirishima which rendered SD defenseless-not SD.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
Dave Saxton wrote: It was a 14" hit against Number 3 barbet which caused the main battery to lose electrical power, taking out the entire main battery forward and aft. It was very much Kirishima which rendered SD defenseless-not SD.
How did that happen ? I remember the 14" hit made a dent in the turrete's barbette, and temporarily knocked it out of action. The electrical defects occured because of 6" and 8" gunfire coming from destroyers and cruisers (SD was hit by at least 26 shells)
dunmunro wrote:
Only 27 IJN Vals (along with 10 Zero escorts) attacked and of these 7 attacked NC in two waves of 3 and 4. Six of the Vals were brought down by fighters prior or during their attack runs and 4 by AA. The 17 surviving Vals then had to face an intense encounter with USN aircraft to finally depart. USN aircraft made a total of 52 aerial kill claims. Lundstrom assesses that 7 more Vals were lost to USN aircraft while departing after their attacks, so USN aircraft made 52 kill claims but only brought down 17 IJN aircraft (13 Vals and 4 Zeros).
I know that Lundstrom has intensely analysed the battle using both IJN and USN records while we only have access to USN records.
... Perhaps a good deal of the destroyed planes were actualy "in-betweens". That is, planes which were damaged by the CAP and guned down by AA, or viceversa.
That would reconcile the declarations of the gunners and fighters to some extent.
From what I read I understand at least 5 more Vals were not able to land back due to heavy damage, and a few more were considered much to damaged and were written off. [total Japanese losses was 71 planes, out of which about 35 from Ryujo]
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Very off-topic question: Were were the Japanese torpedo bombers from Zuikaku and Shokaku ? I can't find any mention off them...
dunmunro wrote:
Only 27 IJN Vals (along with 10 Zero escorts) attacked and of these 7 attacked NC in two waves of 3 and 4. Six of the Vals were brought down by fighters prior or during their attack runs and 4 by AA. The 17 surviving Vals then had to face an intense encounter with USN aircraft to finally depart. USN aircraft made a total of 52 aerial kill claims. Lundstrom assesses that 7 more Vals were lost to USN aircraft while departing after their attacks, so USN aircraft made 52 kill claims but only brought down 17 IJN aircraft (13 Vals and 4 Zeros).
I know that Lundstrom has intensely analysed the battle using both IJN and USN records while we only have access to USN records.
... Perhaps a good deal of the destroyed planes were actualy "in-betweens". That is, planes which were damaged by the CAP and guned down by AA, or viceversa.
That would reconcile the declarations of the gunners and fighters to some extent.
From what I read I understand at least 5 more Vals were not able to land back due to heavy damage, and a few more were considered much to damaged and were written off. [total Japanese losses was 71 planes, out of which about 35 from Ryujo]
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Very off-topic question: Were were the Japanese torpedo bombers from Zuikaku and Shokaku ? I can't find any mention off them...
It is probable that AA damaged some of the planes that were then finished off by USN aircraft but the fact is that only 10 Zeros and 27 Vals were pitted against 53 Wildcats while USN Avengers and Dauntlesses also made repeated attack runs on the IJN aircraft. There is just isn't much room for AA to have been a major factor in downing IJN aircraft, despite the high AA claims. Some IJN aircraft from a 2nd strike wave got lost after failing to find the USN carriers
In Black Shoe Carrier Admiral Lundstrom gives total IJN carrier aircraft losses as:
32 fighters, 24 DBs, and 8 TBs and these include the aircraft from Ryujo.
I think the IJN were holding the TBs in reserve, to finish off any crippled USN ships but they were never launched as the exact location of the USN carriers remained a mystery after one of the two strike waves failed to find them. Ryujo did send a strike force with Kates against Henderson field.
dunmunro wrote:There is just isn't much room for AA to have been a major factor in downing IJN aircraft, despite the high AA claims.
... The initial interception by the CAP from Saratoga was a bit off, and the dive bombers attacked almost un-opposed. The CAP from Enterprise got mangled with the Zeros. This is proved by the massive attacks performed on the 2 US primary targets (7 Vals on North Carolina and 18 on Enterprise).
The CAP from Enterprise and Saratoga battled more with the Vals on the way out (after they droped their bombs and ran the gauntlet of AA fire)
I have other numbers in "War of the Pacific" (75 planes lost by the Japanese). I'll look it up.
Cheers,
P.S.
In the mean time, from the initial (1942) ONI report:
"The Enterprise was the prime target, although the North Carolina was also singled out by several dive bombers. Planes dived at the carrier at intervals of about 7 seconds for a period of approximately 4 minutes, interrupted only by two short lulls of 20 or 30 seconds duration. All dives were steep--65 or 70 degrees--and were, to quote Capt Davis, "well executed and absolutely determined." Bombs were released at from 1,500 to 2,000 feet, and pull-outs were generally low.
At least 10 planes crashed near the Enterprise, and others flew away smoking heavily. Some of those which crashed had never pulled out of their dives. Two burning planes narrowly missed striking the carrier's flight deck. "
[...]
"
The volume of our antiaircraft fire was tremendous. The 5-inch fire of the Enterprise and of the screening ships which could bring their batteries to bear was such that several planes broke off their attacks, and others were seen to emerge from bursts on fire. Three planes disintegrated as though directly hit. The 1.1-inch mounts and 20-mm. guns, used in local control, also were extremely effective. These small-caliber automatic weapons were particularly useful in destroying planes which completed their dives and attempted to retire after pulling out low over the formation.
Capt. Davis and other high-ranking officers present concluded that approximately 70 enemy planes were destroyed at the scene of the action. The fighters received credit for 43 planes of the Japanese attack group and three "snoopers." An SBD on inner air patrol was credited with one dive bomber. Another dive bomber was credited to a Saratoga TBF leaving the carrier on an attack mission. A dive bomber and a torpedo-plane were destroyed near the Ryujo by planes of our attack group, and these aircraft accounted for five additional dive bombers which they encountered while returning to the task force. On a mathematical basis, then, our antiaircraft fire would have to have brought down 15 planes to bring the total destroyed during the fleet action to 70. Whatever the case, very few Japanese pilots who participated in the attack on our ships got back to tell what happened. "
