Tirpitz instead of Scharnhorst in North Cape

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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RF
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Post by RF »

Gary wrote:
Norfolk and Suffolk did a sterling job of shadowing Bismarck 2 years previously but neither one of them, quite rightly, made any attempt to engage Bismarck.
This needs to be qualified, as Norfolk did fire on Bismarck on at least two, posibly three occasions, in support of battleships already engaged against Bismarck.
Also note that in the DS battle Prinz Eugen was not withdrawn but engaged firstly Hood and then POW and her gunnery did play a significant part in that battle - one hit killing 200 Hood sailors.

Given the conditions at the North Cape I think it would be feasible for cruisers to engage Tirpitz and with 8 inch shells do quite a bit of damage although obviously they wouldn't be expected to penetrate the main armour belt. It is a question of how good the Tirpitz shooting is against small targets at night in rough seas. At that stage in the war the Allies could afford to lose a few cruisers in an operation like this.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

About this thread: one thing is Schanhorst, a superb vessel but with only 11" guns or Tirpitz, with her 15" guns and being bigger then the DoY would had a much different foe. Maybe thing could turn around.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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RF
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Post by RF »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:About this thread: one thing is Schanhorst, a superb vessel but with only 11" guns or Tirpitz, with her 15" guns and being bigger then the DoY would had a much different foe. Maybe thing could turn around.
Could well do, if Tirpitz gunnery was accurate.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

RF:
Could well do, if Tirpitz gunnery was accurate.
Of course.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

First thing first on this issue:

Admiral Fraser:
"Gentlemen, the battle against Scharnhorst has ended in victory for us. I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today".
The scenario of Tirpitz vs. DoY would likely be in disadvantage against the Germans because we have a British BB plus cruisers and destroyers against a single German ship. Moreover this if we concede that the Fire Direction Radar on Tirpitz was disabled as Schanhorst was. That and the weather.
But if we have a scenario of the Tirpitz vs. DoY, hand to hand old fashioned way, then the story could be another one.
Again, my money goes to Tirpitz as it would go for Bismarck in a combat against KGV (Tovey included).

Best regards.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Post by paul mercer »

Gary wrote:If Tirpitz had been there, I do not believe Fraser would go up against the Germans with DOY as the only heavy unit.
Of couse he would, even if he didn't really want to. Can you imagine a British Admiral in one of the RN's latest battleships refusing to even engage in combat because he might not win?
Even though she still had problems with some of her guns, Duke of York was a much different proposition to the Prince of Wales. I'm not suggesting he would definitely have won, but as I have said in other posts, it would be difficult for either side to sink a modern battleship by gunfire alone, thereore I think both ships would have been heavily damaged and, given the overall superiority in numbers, the British would have eventually finished her off with torpedoes - thats if Tirpitz had not done a runner in the first place, bearing in mind the standing orders not to engage an equal or superior enemy AND the fact that German ships could not afford to take much damage due to lack of repair facilities and having to make it home with a hostile fleet after them..
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Antonio Bonomi
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Tirpitz at North Cape

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

I am with Karl on this, no way with Tirpitz still in perfect conditions DoY was going to go for her.

Confirmed by 2 facts, not opinions :

1) Until Tirpitz was OK and not damaged by the X-Crafts attack ( on Sept 1943 ), the Russian convoys did not restart, and nobody wanted to bring Tirpitz out off the KaaFjord with a trap like that one used for the Scharnhorst.

2) Churchill personally prohibited a single KG V class battleship to engage the Tirpitz after he saw what Bismarck was capable of, .. and that was written as an order, .. not an opinion, ... at least 2 British BB's with aircaft carrier for Tirpitz, .. or better 1 KGV and a 16 inch armed fast American BB plus Aircaft carrier and all coverage of cruisers and destroyers to manage the Tirpitz in case,.. it was written.

With Scharnhorst it was a different story,... easier ,..so a KG V can do it.

Tirpitz like any other German BB never had radar direction fire control,... but surely uch better and many more radar and rangefinders than Scharnhorst,.. and I do not think DoY was going to close in to her 380 mm guns like she did to the 280 mm guns of Scharnhorst ..... anyway.

All my money as well on Tirpitz, .. hands down, ... no match,.. especially on day light.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Post by paul mercer »

So you are saying that if DOY, whether she was escorting a convoy or on her own, met up with Tirpitz she would turn and run? NO WAY!
Churchill's orders or not, it would have meant an instant court martial for the Admiral concerned and probably the Captain as well.
As has been proved on many an occasion throughout history, the RN does not run because there is a possibility or even a probability of defeat!
In many ways it would be like the situation Lutjens faced, but in reverse.
He engaged at DS because he thought, quite justifiably as it proved, that he was on the best, most powerful battleship of her time, how could he possibly refuse combat, desite his orders?
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Re: Tirpitz at North Cape

Post by Nellie »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:2) Churchill personally prohibited a single KG V class battleship to engage the Tirpitz
Hi! Did he allowed the Nelson class to engage the Tirpitz alone, or was it the same rules as with the KGV? Do you know anything about that Antonio?
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Tirpitz factor ...

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Paul, Nellie and all,

@ Paul,

.. be careful wit the statement that the Royal Navy does not sail away, .. because they did .....

... if you read the book : '' The Destruction of Convoy PQ17 '' written by David Irving ISBN 0586062750....

.... than you will have a more clear idea of what awas the '' Tirpitz factor '' on that strategical scenario .....

... just read in here a summary, ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_PQ-17

YES, the Royal Navy escort ships sailed away when Tirpitz came out of the Kaafjord unexpectedly, leaving all the merchant ships alone, .. to their destiny, .. all were sunk after by U-Boote and FW200 airplanes.

Now DoY was not there, there were heavy cruisers and other ships ( even an US Navy one if I recall correctly ) but that was not the problem, Tirpitz plus Admiral Hipper and Admiral Scheer escorted by destroyers and with air coverage were just too much to be managed up there.

You can be sure that a KGV class alone was never going to come close to Tirpitz, only if escorted and well protected and with firepower superiority like in case of Op. Sportpalast.
During that Operation on March 1942 the Home fleet supposed to engege the Tirpitz was composed by :

The battlecruiser Renown, the battleship Duke of York, the cruiser Kenya and six destroyers plus the battleship King George V, the aircraft carrier Victorious, the cruiser Berwick and six destroyers dividen into 2 groups converging to cover the convoys.
So as you can see they were just following Churchill directions.

@ Nellie,

I have never read directions for the Nelson class ships that were anyhow too old and slow to be assumed been able to engage succesfully and easily a ship like Tirpitz, because the base assumption was that Tirpitz was surely going to try to sail away disengaging, and in that case Nelson or Rodney were just too slow to catch her.

Rodney demolished the Bismarck, only because she was not able to sail anymore,.. otherwise was never able to catch her too,..so I assume one ship of that class was going to be able/authorized to come close to Tirpitz only if heavily damaged,...but there were no Rodney nor Nelson on the artic scenario if I recall correctly.
They brought in some american battleships, ( Washington, South Dakota,..... etc etc to cover up ).

Do not forget that once damaged a ship like that was going to be sunk not with gunfire ( Bismarck lesson well learned ) but with torpedoes, .. like they did with Scharnhorst.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Post by paul mercer »

Antonio, thanks for the reply. I have read PQ17, although along time ago and I believe the convoy was told to scatter as they did not have a heavy escort and none could get there in time. When I said that the RN would engage even though there was a possibility or even a probability of defeat I still think this is true, however for cruisers to engage Tirpitz would be a certainty of defeat - cruisers and destroyers on their own do not engage with battleships, particularly ones like Tirpitz! I also beleive that Rodney did a few Arctic convoys in case Tirpiz came out, so she would have engaged if she got the chance. However, let us set a couple of senarios.
1) The RN gets word that Tirpitz is coming out to attack a convoy, a KGV class ship is at sea within reach, but on her own except for her escorts and maybe a cruiser, I cannot believe for one moment that she would not be ordered to intercept and try to save the convoy.
2) The RN gets word that Bismarck is out, the only available capital ship is either Hood or POW (not both). Again, I do not believe that the RN would have turned round and said 'she's much to big and powerful, so we're staying at home'
So as I said before, if Tirpitz had come out they would have sent DOY against her and, with her modern radar she would have had a fair chance of doing enough damage to allow her cruisers to finish the job with torpedoes, even if she was badly damaged in the process. However, given their armour, I do not think either would have been sunk by gunfire alone.
At the risk of repeating myself again, there is NO WAY the RN would have refused battle with a force that was approximately equal, to do so would bring utter disgrace on the ship, her Captain and her Admiral.
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Antonio Bonomi
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RN and Tirpitz

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Paul and all,

I fully agree with you my friend and into your response there is the perfect explanation of the whole strategical scenario.

Surely, during WW 2 Royal Navy strategy was to engage in any way they could KM warships, no matter what, assuming a fair chance to win was there as usually Royal Navy was able to concentrate more than one ship on a given area of battle sooner or later, while KM was not.

So been far superior on number of ships, a lost each way was a victory strategically for the allied, because warships were not so important, ... the convoys were :wink: ! ...and one less warship for KM was going to be many more convoys easily sailing to support a strategical war scenario ( the artic convoys supported the russian front ).

That is why KM did not want to engage enemy warships ( unless to sink a big convoy ) while Royal Navy wanted to engage in any favourable condition.

I wrote favourable, because as you realized, when it was so evident it was unfavourable, they could only sail away as they did for PQ 17.

To answer to your scenarios, .. YES, a KG V class was going to engage Tirpitz only if supported by other ships , even only cruisers or destroyers,..but with a fair chance to damage Tirpitz so evidently and allow the other ships to sink the Tirpitz, ... at any cost for her own, .. and on that war scenario that was almost sure, ... as a Royal Navy ship was never sailing alone.

Do not forget that on 1943 that was the allied first priority on that scenario, .. damage the Tirpitz in any way they could, .. even at a KG V warship cost, .. I suppose,..you are right with gunfire alone,..difficult to sink a ship like those 2,..so who had support and torpedo was going to sink the other when both were very heavily damaged :wink:.

On your scenario 2 you just get the point again,..when you have more than one ship,..why sending one alone,..and that was the case of Royal Navy,..managing warships superiority locally agaisnt KM that cannot do the same,.. unless very few times.

You are absolutely right and I fully agree with you, usually Royal Navy naval tradition ( like many others too ) will never allow a battleship to refuse combat against equal forces,..in fact Churchill was furious for what PoW did at DS battle,... but I still think that on that particular situation it was a wise decision taken by Capt. Leach,.

Ciao Antonio :D
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Post by paul mercer »

Many thanks once again Antonio.
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Post by iankw »

Hi Antonio

Sorry to have to point this out but your original post stated:
2) Churchill personally prohibited a single KG V class battleship to engage the Tirpitz after he saw what Bismarck was capable of, .. and that was written as an order, .. not an opinion, ... at least 2 British BB's with aircaft carrier for Tirpitz, .. or better 1 KGV and a 16 inch armed fast American BB plus Aircaft carrier and all coverage of cruisers and destroyers to manage the Tirpitz in case,.. it was written.
Quite clearly this says that DoY was not going to engage Tirpitz without another BB in support, no mention of cruisers and destroyers as being acceptable. I am glad that you see this was not a practical position in reality. DoY was going to engage Tirpitz, given the chance - Churchill or not. Given the same conditions I predict the same result as with Scharnhorst, simply because DoY could target Tirpitz, which was unable to respond. Different conditions could, of course, yield a different result.

ciao.
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Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Iankw and all,

no problems :D , ... and thanks for providing me a chance to explain a bit better the whole situation and scenario, .. so I will not be misunderstood.

That phrase and orders were given by W. Churchill on May 1941, immediately after Bismarck was sunk, evaluating the ship status on that moment available by Royal Navy and Tirpitz readiness soon coming on the scenario,..as said 1941, .. so no radar superiority at night yet by the British,..otherwise I think Hood and PoW were going surely to engage Bismarck in the darkness as DoY did with Scharnhorst,.. if you have an advantage you will use it :wink: .

But things developed fast for British gunnery after, .. not for Germans, .. and they were the only one on late 1943 and 1944 been able to shoot over night precisely using the radar to direct precisely the guns, .... while any KM warship, .. so Tirpitz included cannot so well.

Now at North Cape DoY trapped the Scharnhorst knowing that radar superiority in the darkness,.. and also the inferior 280 mm guns Scharnhorst had, .. that enabled the risk to be taken by Royal Navy to push DoY so close to Scharnhorst.

280 mm of Graf Spee did not sink the Exeter,..while the 380 mm of Bismarck sunk the Hood,... this was the difference they evaluated.

Neither Adm Fraser expected that Scharnhorst would became also radar blind ( because of a Norfolk previous hit ,.... and Scharnhorst only had 1 good radar highly positioned,..no other one fwd .. one only back low and outdated ) and was consequently caught completely unprepared by the DoY able to close in unnoticed till 9000 meters only before DoY opened fire on Scharnhorst ,..that even responding was not going to be able to score devastating hits on DoY anyhow,.. no KO possibilities,... because of the 280 mm guns only.

Tirpitz was having 380 mm devastating guns,.. and the Royal Navy Admirals knew it,.. 3+1 last version radars and not only 1+1 old like Scharnhorst,.. so I think that unless under desperate situations and strong intention to sink the Tirpitz at any cost at sea,.. no one was thinking to get close to Tirpitz especially on daylight and with all radars and guns well working,.. despite the fact that she could not fire so precisely over night,... surely it could not be expected to get close to 9000 meters from Tirpitz unnoticed and she could sail away very fast,....... and in fact no trap was prepared for Tirpitz on late 1943, .. like happened to Scharnhorst after Tirpitz was damaged.

Tirpitz had no engines problems,... good radars and devastating guns,... could sail as fast as Scharnhorst could sail over 30 knots,... so I do not think it was a good idea to prepare a trap for her, .. she can shoot and sail away.

You are assuming,.. if I read correctly your statements,... Tirpitz could not target DoY, .. that to me is reading a bit too much positively what happened in reality, .. as Scharnhorst did target DoY anyhow, .. but did not score at all on her, .. and even if was going to score on DoY,.. not much damages were expected,... while with Tirpitz it was going to be a complete different story,.....

Do you think this is enough to make them ' different conditions ' ??
I think so, Tirpitz had more options that Scharnhorst even at night .....

So I suppose my same evaluations were the ones Royal Navy Admirals made and in fact they waited X-Crafts to damage Tirpitz before restarting the Artic convoys and felt confortable to prepare that trap for Scharnhorst, .. been sure that Tirpitz could not sail on the open sea :wink: .

But in theory, .. if you were going to be able to place Home fleet all around Tirpitz, .. maybe a couple of torpedoes on her,... and than close with many ships while she was damaged,.... than the story could become different, .. like for Bismarck, ... and in fact they tryied with Op. Sportpalast on March 1942 to do that too,.. as said before.

There are no unsinkable ships,... it was only a matter to create favourable conditions and get the trap well organized,.. and reduce the speed of faster ships that normally would have sailed away if they could, ... so you need to hit them,..damage them reducing speed,.. and finish them off with torpedoes, ......

Ciao Antonio :D
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