Hipper vs. Graf Spee

[Gerard Heimann]

Our usual battle hypotheticals involve ships from opposing navies. If this scenario has been discussed before, I would welcome a reference, but otherwise, I would enjoy the views of this Forum's members as to the battle resolution between the Hipper and Graf Spee. For the sake of a concurrent time frame, let's use the Fall of 1939 as the time of the battle with the ships in their configurations at that time.

Hipper cannot use her very superior speed to refuse battle, but as with any other perceived advantage of the part of either ship, her speed can be used strategically to offer battle. The battle would be fought in daylight in moderate seas.

Regards,
Gerard

[RF]

Would the Hipper, with the same approximate dimensions as a British county class cruiser, be vastly different as a proposition to AGS than say HMS Cumberland? I ask this question as this confrontation almost happened in early October 1939. When I posed this question in a thread a couple of years ago people favoured the AGS, largely on the grounds it has only the one target to shoot at.

[Bgile]

6x11" vs 8x8". I think the bigger gun ship is much superior under the conditions given.

[lwd]

Comparing the gun data from:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-52_skc28.htm
and
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_8-60_skc34.htm
It's not clear to me that either one has much of an edge. When firing AP rounds I don't think either ship is safe from the other. The 11" rounds are almost 3 times as heavy but the there are 50% more 8" rounds and they have twice the rate of fire. I think I might give a slight edge to Hipper. If their shooting is equally good then Hipper should land more hits sooner and have a better chance of hitting something critical. Could easily go either way though.

[Gerard Heimann]

lwd, that was my quandary, the larger guns against smaller, but more guns, which could fire more frequently. I wonder what was the German Navy perspective regarding which ship was more "capital"?

Gerard

[Bgile]

First, in practical terms I don't believe Hipper can fire faster.

Secondly, any hit from AGS on hipper will probably be devastating. Just look at what happened to Exeter if you want an example of AGS vs Hipper. The result would likely be the same. A hit from Hipper will not penetrate AGS heaviest armor, and the reverse is not true.

Could it go either way? Of course, but looking at stats and the historical result against Exeter (even with two CLs in support) it seems to me it's pretty lopsided.

Historically, navies went with bigger guns over more smaller ones. Look at the US with 12 - 14" vs 9 - 16". They went with the 16" as soon as they had an excuse with the escalator clause.

Another example is the Colorado class. The previous class had modern 14" guns. Twelve of them. The USN went with eight 16" guns instead.

[RF]

Just look at what happened to Exeter if you want an example of AGS vs Hipper. The result would likely be the same.

You cannot really compare Exeter to Hipper, it is a smaller ship, less well armoured and had only six guns. That is why I felt that a County Class cruiser would be closer comparison.

[RF]

Another consideration here with regard to 11 inch shell hits is of how well damage control operates in Hipper, was it for example as bad as in the sister ship Blucher? The latter took two hits from unarmed 11 inch shells fired from the Norwegian forts in Oslo Fjord, one of which took off the foretop the other lodged between fuel pipes in the engine room, the heat from the shell starting a fire - and Blucher's crew, with no training in fire fighting, were unable to prevent a massive fire from crippling the ship.

[lwd]

First, in practical terms I don't believe Hipper can fire faster.

In battleship actions at extended ranges that is usually the arguemnt. However I would expect this action to take place at or below 20,000 yards in which case rate of fire does start to be a factor. If the engagment stays at say 25,000+ yards then rate of fire is probably not a factor. If it gets under 15,000 it could be critical.

Secondly, any hit from AGS on hipper will probably be devastating. Just look at what happened to Exeter if you want an example of AGS vs Hipper. The result would likely be the same. A hit from Hipper will not penetrate AGS heaviest armor, and the reverse is not true.

According to http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... /tech.html
GS thickest armor is 150mm looking at:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_8-60_skc34.htm
Hipper's guns penetrate 240mm at ~10,000 yards.
Comparing to Scharnhorst's guns (due to lack of data on Hipper's) from
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_8-60_skc34.htm
There penetration at 30,000 yards looks to be about half what it is at 10,000 yards so GS thickest armor probably starts turning Hipper's ap rounds at ~25,000 yards. In any case her belt is subject to penetration well beyond that and her decks well under it so GS has no immune zone vs Hipper. The two areas where GS can reject an 8" AP shell from Hipper are also ones that might still be taken out of action by a non penetrting hit as well (turret and command tower)

Historically, navies went with bigger guns over more smaller ones. Look at the US with 12 - 14" vs 9 - 16". They went with the 16" as soon as they had an excuse with the escalator clause.

Another example is the Colorado class. The previous class had modern 14" guns. Twelve of them. The USN went with eight 16" guns instead.

But the US also apparently decided that 6" cruisers might be better in the South Pacific than 8" cruisers and the above was for BB where armor was also increasing. The US also decided that it wasn't worth going to an 18" gun for BBs.

This one looks very close to a toss up to me but I think I slightly favor Hipper. For one thing her additional speed can potentially make her a harder target. The quality of the gun crews would probably dominate this action however. In reading an on line account of GS last battle I was impressed by how well she was shooting. I don't think I've seen anything to indicate one way or another how good a shooter Hipper was.

[Bgile]

lwd,

Why would AGS hold her fire until 20,000 yds? PG sure didn't do that against Hood, so wouldn't against AGS either. AGS is just going to sit there while the CA shoots at her and the range comes down?

I think you know why some USN officers favored the 6" gun. Many of the battles were occurring in the area of five to eight thousand yds. The Brooklyn class had 15 guns which could fire much faster than the nine 8" guns on the treaty cruisers. It could be decisive when it's very dark and you are trying to hit a fleeting target by saturating the area with shells. I can't believe you don't see the difference. The difference here is only six guns vs eight guns and the rate of fire is almost the same. The difference in throw weight is just huge.

I fail to see the relevance of increased armor on Hipper. It will only serve to fuze the shells of AGS.

If we were comparing Renown to Scharnhorst I think you have used the same arguments I'm using to favor Renown because of her heavier guns, only that's a closer thing than this is.

[Gerard Heimann]

I don't know how much artillery was expended to achieve the following hits and can't therefore calculate accuracy, but during Hipper's second Atlantic sortie of February 1941, Hipper sank 7 of 19 merchants and damaged several others. Granted that the merchants were relatively easy to hit, the ability to move from target to target and shooting well enough to ensure a sinking condition in many cases before retraining guns, would intuitively indicate good shooting.

Even in the Battle of the Barents Sea, Hipper achieved the sinking of a minesweeper, put Achates out of action and damaged Onslow, while only one merchant was sunk by any of the other German ships.

Gerard

[lwd]

lwd,
Why would AGS hold her fire until 20,000 yds? PG sure didn't do that against Hood, so wouldn't against AGS either. AGS is just going to sit there while the CA shoots at her and the range comes down?

I didn't say she would. I'm suggesting however that much of the battle would likely take place under 20,000 yards. Indeed at the River Platte GS didn't open fire until 20,000 yards

... The difference here is only six guns vs eight guns and the rate of fire is almost the same. The difference in throw weight is just huge.

At under 15,000 yards the rate of fire will be almost double for the 8" guns that means ~3 8" shells for every 11" shell which is aproximatly the inverse of their shell weights. More hits also means more chance of hitting something critical.

I fail to see the relevance of increased armor on Hipper. It will only serve to fuze the shells of AGS.

I don't think I addressed Hipper's armor to any great extent. However it would mean that GS would be more likely to use AP shells rather than HE.

If we were comparing Renown to Scharnhorst I think you have used the same arguments I'm using to favor Renown because of her heavier guns, only that's a closer thing than this is.

That may be but I also suspect that the latter action would take place at longer range where the rate of fire would be more affected by the range. However I'd have to look back and see just what I said in such a case. The one time they did meet the Renown was shooting better than the twins (I think weather played a part here as well). Off the top of my head I'd say they were pretty closely matched as well.

[Bgile]

lwd,

Sorry, my post wasn't directed entirely at you.

Navweaps gives AGS a 2.5rpm rate of fire and Hipper a 4 to 5 rpm rate of fire, so not ~3 times. A bit less than 2 times at the best, under 10,000 yds. In any case, time of flight is important and its over 30 seconds at 20,000 yds and I think about 20 seconds at 15,000 yds. I'd expect an engagement like Komandorski Is, where the range stayed over 20,000 yds.

Whatever. I've had my say and we clearly aren't going to agree.

[lwd]

I must have shifted rows when I was looking at time of flights. For obsereved fire you are correct 10,000 yards is about when they could go to full rate. Although some have suggested here that it was German doctrine to go to rapid fire was they were on target and not wait for fall of shot corrections on every salvo. If the ROF is double and it's 8 guns to 6 then we are looking at ~3(2.67) times the number of shells being fired. A lot depends on whether or not it's accumulated damage or criticals that have the most influence on this battle. Accumulated damage would give GS an edge due to slightly greater weight of fire. Criticals the edge would go to Hipper due to more hits and the vulnerability of GS to loosing half her main battery to a single hit although Hipper might be subject to this as well.

[Dave Saxton]

I don't know how much artillery was expended to achieve the following hits and can't therefore calculate accuracy, but during Hipper's second Atlantic sortie of February 1941, Hipper sank 7 of 19 merchants and damaged several others. Granted that the merchants were relatively easy to hit, the ability to move from target to target and shooting well enough to ensure a sinking condition in many cases before retraining guns, would intuitively indicate good shooting.

Even in the Battle of the Barents Sea, Hipper achieved the sinking of a minesweeper, put Achates out of action and damaged Onslow, while only one merchant was sunk by any of the other German ships.

Gerard

Hi Gerard,

Do you know the ranges of the Feb, 12th, 1941 action against Convoy SLS-64? The weather was rotten compounded by fog, yet the Hipper successfully attacked 9 of the convoy; sinking 7 and heavilly damaging two. I seem to recall reading somewhere it had expended about 280 rounds of 8" but I'm not sure.

Historically the Hipper class's shooting was very good. Just looking at the Hipper itself, the Hipper had earlier on Christmas day 1940 scored four direct hits on heavy cruiser HMS Berwick taking out a main battery turret, again in very foul weather, in two breif episodes of fire before disengaging by dissapearing totally into the soup. While engaging the British cruisers it had also damaged two or three of the convoy with its MA battery. Circling around to the back side of the fleeing convoy WS-5A it located and made short work of a armed merchant cruiser Jumna of 14,000 tons.

At Barents Sea it straddled and hit the Achates at ~14,000 meters with one of the opening salvoes. It was not continously firing but firing rather delibrately at different destroyers in spaced episodes of fire at intervals, while avoiding putting itself in danger of torpedo hits. Within 45 minutes of the opening of the battle it had additionally pummeled the Onslow with multiple direct hits and had damaged a third DD. When it later re-engaged and sank the Achates it scored a direct hit with the first salvo from a range exceeding 18,000 meters.