Hipper vs. Graf Spee

[tommy303]

Speaking of incoming ordnance, the Hipper would have to use APC to insure adequate penetration of GS's armour, and that shell had only a 5-lbs TNT bursting charge. GS could use base fuzed HE and still achieve more than adequate penetration at any conceivable range, and this round had 35-lbs of TNT as a bursting charge. At the risk of being overly simplistic, this would be roughly seven times as destructive as a 20,3cm APC shell in terms of explosive and better than twice as destructive in terms of metal fragments. If the Spee used APC she would still enjoy twice the weight of fragments and three times the amount of explosive.

[Bgile]

Speaking of incoming ordnance, the Hipper would have to use APC to insure adequate penetration of GS's armour, and that shell had only a 5-lbs TNT bursting charge. GS could use base fuzed HE and still achieve more than adequate penetration at any conceivable range, and this round had 35-lbs of TNT as a bursting charge. At the risk of being overly simplistic, this would be roughly seven times as destructive as a 20,3cm APC shell in terms of explosive and better than twice as destructive in terms of metal fragments. If the Spee used APC she would still enjoy twice the weight of fragments and three times the amount of explosive.

My opinion is definitely affected by the after action photos of Exeter. AGS' shells were very destructive.

[RF]

On Exeter yes. But Hipper is overall bigger and better armoured.

[Tiornu]

better armoured

In what way?

[RF]

Exeter was only a York class treaty cruser, Hipper was considerably more substantial in tonnage, compartmentation and armour. Exeter was basically constructed as a light cruiser carrying six eight inch guns....

[Tiornu]

That doesn't really address the question. Are you saying Hipper was better-armored because the 30mm deck over her magazines was more substantial than the 75mm deck over Exeter's magazines?

[RF]

No, not because of an instance of the armour being thinner as you cite, but because the ship overall is heavier and larger overall. It doesn't make the ship indestructible but I would have thought Hipper would have a better survival chance against a pocket battleship than Exeter, at least on paper.

[Tiornu]

Yes, Hipper was larger and would have the advantage of all that additional buoyancy. Compared to Exeter...well, it's hard to make the comparison between their armor schemes, which is why I asked what you had in mind specifically. Hipper has the advantage of much better protection for the main battery. I'm not sure how much that would matter against 28cm shells. Hipper has more of her waterline armored too, and while this armor is largely hopeless against 28cm shells, it would keep out more splinters. Exeter's magazine may be better off, but neither of these ships is up to resisting large-caliber hits.

[lwd]

The fact that she's larger also means she's likely to get hit more often. In this contest Hipper's main hope for survival would not be her armor but her guns inflicting critical damage on GS before it's too late. Hipper needs to get critical hits. More faster fireing guns may give her a chance to get them before it's too late ... or not.

[Gary]

IWD is correct.

In a cruiser fight, armour schemes cannot be relied on.
HMS Renowns motto of "Hit first, hit hard" springs to mind.
The ship that finds the range first and begins to score hits will be the likely victor
Even a Kent class could hope to defeat AGS if her shooting is good enough but (and here is the but) if AGS begins to accurately respond, its not gonna take many 28cm hits to spoil the day for a Kent or a Hipper.

How many did Exeter take at River Plate?
Off the top of my head it was about 7 or 8 with one or two near misses (splinter damage).

It really was a rather clever idea to mount 28cm guns on a cruiser hull

[RF]

The River Plate action is I think a difficult comparison to make with Hipper vs AGS because Harwood had three cruisers that worked together, whereas Hipper is on its own. Exeter was heavily hit, but at the critical point AGS was distracted by Ajax and Achilles.
I would think Exeter on its own would have been easily sunk, but again Hipper had two extra guns with which to target AGS.

But if Hipper was backed up with either Leipzig or Nurnburg - would your views on Hipper's chances alter?

[Bgile]

The River Plate action is I think a difficult comparison to make with Hipper vs AGS because Harwood had three cruisers that worked together, whereas Hipper is on its own. Exeter was heavily hit, but at the critical point AGS was distracted by Ajax and Achilles.
I would think Exeter on its own would have been easily sunk, but again Hipper had two extra guns with which to target AGS.

But if Hipper was backed up with either Leipzig or Nurnburg - would your views on Hipper's chances alter?

My POV would change if Hipper was backed up by Ajax and Achilles.

Not sure about the German CLs.

[Gary]

Or how about if we subsitute Exeter, Ajax and Achilles for Cumberland, Sheffield and Belfast?
Things may be different then.

(But now I'm guilty of taking the thread off-topic! )

[tommy303]

Among other things, Sheffield and Belfast both had 12x6-inch guns so in effect those two ships would double the number of 6-inch guns the AGS would have to face since Ajax and Achilles had 6 each--ie 24x6-in versus 12x6inch. Cumberland would add a second pair of 8inch guns bring the total from 6 to eight. On the other hand, Langsdorff would have recognized a 3-stacker for what she was and would probably not have mistaken Sheffield and Belfast for destroyers, so he might not have charged in to engage anyways. On an historical note, Belfast was out of action due to mine damage at the time of the battle of the river Platte, although the similar Edinburgh was operational.

[Bgile]

Among other things, Sheffield and Belfast both had 12x6-inch guns so in effect those two ships would double the number of 6-inch guns the AGS would have to face since Ajax and Achilles had 6 each--ie 24x6-in versus 12x6inch. Cumberland would add a second pair of 8inch guns bring the total from 6 to eight. On the other hand, Langsdorff would have recognized a 3-stacker for what she was and would probably not have mistaken Sheffield and Belfast for destroyers, so he might not have charged in to engage anyways. On an historical note, Belfast was out of action due to mine damage at the time of the battle of the river Platte, although the similar Edinburgh was operational.

A&A had 8 each, Tommy. :)