Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

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BlackBirdZGTR
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Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by BlackBirdZGTR »

Lets say if in this hypothetical scenario the Battleship Bismarck and Heavy Cruiser Prince Eugen, were replaced by the Yamato(1945 config) and Takao, or by the Iowa and Baltimore during Operation Rheinübung?

How would the battle of the Denmark Strait unfold? Would the Prince of Wales had been able to escape if they were faced with the Japanese or American ships that i mentioned above?

Would the British swordfish torpedo bombers ever of had a chance to get hits in on the Iowa or Yamato with their massive arrays of anti air guns?

Would it have been possible for them to ever get that lucky rudder hit?

If yes what chance would either the Yamato or Iowa have after the British heavy ships catch up to either of them?
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by JtD »

The US ships are fast enough to shake off the pursuing Norfolk and Suffolk. They'd be really hard to intercept and, with the late war radar, they'd probably be a really tough match in a battle. However, one always has to remember that Bismarck was very lucky with sinking Hood as quickly as she did, and if you change the variables and play the game again, it could become a really big mess for either side.
For Yamato, I don't know. The slower speed makes it easier to handle for the RN, but then it packs a bit more of a punch than Bismarck did. Overall I don't rate it much higher in the scenario than Bismarck, even though it is definitely different.

Both the Yamato and the Iowa have so much more AAA that the small wings of the RN planes would suffer extremely high losses. However, I doubt you'd manage to keep all of them from dropping their torpedoes.
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RF
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by RF »

This is too unrealistic for such an action to happen at such a place. The Americans would not strategically and tactically be operating in isolation, the Japanese would not operate in waters they have no knowledge or experience of.

It might be more appropriate to consider Yamato vs POW and Repulse off the coast of Malaya in December 1941. Repulse might be weaker than Hood in terms of firepower, but POW would be far more effective than at DS due to it being worked up.
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by JtD »

I think it is more like a "had Germany had these ships" rather than a "had the US or Japan had their ships in that place" kind of question.
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by lwd »

BlackBirdZGTR wrote:Lets say if in this hypothetical scenario the Battleship Bismarck and Heavy Cruiser Prince Eugen, were replaced by the Yamato(1945 config) and Takao, or by the Iowa and Baltimore during Operation Rheinübung?

How would the battle of the Denmark Strait unfold? Would the Prince of Wales had been able to escape if they were faced with the Japanese or American ships that i mentioned above?
Vs the Japanese ships the British wouldn't have to be in as much of a hurry as Yamato can't outrun the British BBs. If they know much about Yamato they will wait for more BBs (KG V and Rodney?). This may allow an air strike or two before they engage as well. End result if this happens is Denmark strait is likely to occur in the Atlantic as much as a day later. The British probably end up with at least one probably more seriously damaged BBs and the "Germans" end up with a heavily damaged (almost inoperable) BB and a sinking cruiser. Neither make it back home. The British may loose one or more BBs.

Vs the US ships they have to pretty much engage as they did. The Germans probably opens fire earlier than historical but a repeat of Hood going is unlikely. If she does particularly if she does on the same salvo POW is likely to recieve more damage than she did historically but probably still escapes.

In both cases the DDs that made the night attacks are much more likely to get hit. In particular vs Iowa.
Would the British swordfish torpedo bombers ever of had a chance to get hits in on the Iowa or Yamato with their massive arrays of anti air guns?
If Iowa has proximaty fused ammo not very likely. Otherwise I think they have a good chance. It is very likely that several will be shot down but in most cases after they've dropped their fish. Yamato is bigger and slower so may even take another torpedo or two.
Would it have been possible for them to ever get that lucky rudder hit?
Unlikely just as it was with Bismarck but I believe possible.
If yes what chance would either the Yamato or Iowa have after the British heavy ships catch up to either of them?
2 on one with limited speed and maneuverability I don't see them surviving either. Probably both have a better chance of inflicting damage on the attacking vessels and given the weight of shells one of the British BBs may be hurting by the end of the battle.
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RF
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by RF »

JtD wrote:I think it is more like a "had Germany had these ships" rather than a "had the US or Japan had their ships in that place" kind of question.
I can see what you mean, but as lwd has intimated the RN is likely to use modified tactics against these combinations. The key point here is that if the ''German'' ships cannot avoid damage and shake off their pursuers they are still basically doomed.

Perhaps I could suggest an alternative combination, which could have happened. Suppose just before WW2 started Vittorio Veneto and Zara visited Germany and with the outbreak of war stayed there until May 1941. Raeder, with the agreement of Mussolini, sends both ships out under a German Fleet Commander in place of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen.
Now how would VV and Zara, with their Italian crews and German leadership, have performed at DS?
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by JtD »

I think they may have run out of fuel before getting there. ;)
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by BlackBirdZGTR »

Vs the Japanese ships the British wouldn't have to be in as much of a hurry as Yamato can't outrun the British BBs. If they know much about Yamato they will wait for more BBs (KG V and Rodney?). This may allow an air strike or two before they engage as well. End result if this happens is Denmark strait is likely to occur in the Atlantic as much as a day later.
By World War II standards the Yamato had a normal top speed for a battleship, the KGV class ships had an equal top speed to that of the Yamato class while only Hood and Renown class Battlecruisers could outrun the Yamato. If they know anything about the Yamato i would agree with KGV joining up with Hood and PoW but Rodney would never be able to catch up to them, as well if they wait too long then the KGV battleships wouldent be able to catch up to the Yamato especially after its in the open Atlantic. :think:
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by JtD »

The Yamato did not have enough fuel to make a high speed cruise or even a top speed cruise and go all the way from Norway via Denmark Strait to Brest. At 27 knots you could run the machinery for 100 hours before the fuel runs out, considering secondary fuel consumers this gives a range of about 2150 nm. At 24 knots you could extend that to 3300. I think the trip around Iceland is about 2500nm, and this is not allowing for much room.
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by RF »

Provision for refuelling at sea was available to Rheinubung, both north of Iceland and in the Davis Strait. In the event Bismarck/PE used neither but they would be available to these other ships.
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by lwd »

Of course refueling changes even more. For instance it gives the British more time to get ships in place so that the original Denmarck strait battle becomes even less likely.
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by David89 »

BlackBirdZGTR-Prince of Wales reached a speed of just over 29kts while moving to intercept Bismarck. On the other hand Yamato had a top speed of 27kts and I've never seen anything to show that she ever acheived a higher speed than this.
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by JtD »

Yamato recorded 27.5 knots on trials.

RF, you're right, but so is lwd. Refueling at sea is not a small thing to do when trying to break out into the Atlantic and involves a few strategic risks.
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by Legend »

Iowa would have been a tough boat to crack. Faster than anything the British had, and with a broadside-per-minute difference of nearly 20,000lbs (vs the KGV's)... The British would have had to have atleast three ships to take her down, while taking losses, Iowa's radar would assure that. Iowa and the cruiser would have been a different story...
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BlackBirdZGTR
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Re: Bismarck and Prince Eugen replaced by...

Post by BlackBirdZGTR »

David89 wrote:BlackBirdZGTR-Prince of Wales reached a speed of just over 29kts while moving to intercept Bismarck. On the other hand Yamato had a top speed of 27kts and I've never seen anything to show that she ever acheived a higher speed than this.
I've never seen anything ever telling me a KGV class battleship could achieve a speed of over 28 knots. I'm sorry but you'd have to link to me this place which claims the Prince of Wales was able to reach of speed of 29 knots. :think:
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