Scharnhorst and Gneisenau vs Yamato

[Bgile]

...This is very astute, as German gunnery doctrine reccomended the use of HE or HE mixed in in cases of the armour over matching the penetrative power of the shells

Where did you find this? I've wondered if this tactic was just something that armchair admirals came up with or it was one that navies of the time actually considered. This is the first I've seen to indicate the latter.

... Since the US 16" guns could not defeat the Yamato's main armour protection at likely battle ranges either, the little German ships could be just as effective as two Iowas could in such a scenario.

That depends a great deal on what you consider "likely battle ranges" and "main armor protection".

I dont think the US fast battleships carried HC shells unless they were planning a bombardment mission.

The 16"/50 AP Mark 8 Mods 1-5 begin penetrating Yamato's deck armor at 34,000 yds. It begins to penetrate citadel vertical armor at 14,000 yds, so the immune zone against that weapon is from 14K to 34K yds. She would be vulnerable at the ranges where Kirishima was engaged.

[Dave Saxton]

Yes, that covers most of the likely battle ranges. Penetration for 16"/50 begins to exceed 200mm by around 35,000 yards according to the deMarre based models, which tend to overstate deck penetration. Since they can't penetrate Yamato's vitals except at very extreme ranges, short or long, they arn't likely to do much more damage than the Scharnhorst's 11" can do.

Where did you find this? I've wondered if this tactic was just something that armchair admirals came up with or it was one that navies of the time actually considered. This is the first I've seen to indicate the latter.

GkDos100 speaks to this. The BB59 manual reccomends only using AP on heavily armoured targets.

I agree that two Bismarcks with their own precise RDFC could be a threat to Yamato. However the issue is that whilst the Germans fire (Bismarcks) also do the Japanese.

I'm refering to the likely effect of HE fire from both twins on the soft ends of the ship, its speed, stability, and to the firecontrol sensors and communications, and human resources. If the Germans can hit first (even HE near misses could be effective) and more often, as is likely, the Yamato may not be able to reply very effectively.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

The 16"/50 AP Mark 8 Mods 1-5 begin penetrating Yamato's deck armor at 34,000 yds. It begins to penetrate citadel vertical armor at 14,000 yds, so the immune zone against that weapon is from 14K to 34K yds. She would be vulnerable at the ranges where Kirishima was engaged.

From what I had read there is no evidence that any shell from USN inventory could do that. In this fantasy the Yamato is as vulnerable as Kirishima on the same ranges, which is, by all practical standards, more than absurd.

[Bgile]

Bgile:

The 16"/50 AP Mark 8 Mods 1-5 begin penetrating Yamato's deck armor at 34,000 yds. It begins to penetrate citadel vertical armor at 14,000 yds, so the immune zone against that weapon is from 14K to 34K yds. She would be vulnerable at the ranges where Kirishima was engaged.

From what I had read there is no evidence that any shell from USN inventory could do that. In this fantasy the Yamato is as vulnerable as Kirishima on the same ranges, which is, by all practical standards, more than absurd.

No, Kirishima would be vulnerable at any conceivable range, not just below 14,000 yds.

[Karl Heidenreich]

And Yamato was not vulnerable to the guns of any other warship at any practical range whatsoever, whilst the other battleships were quite vulnerable to Yamato's 18" at any available combat range. South Dakota, if capable of hitting anything on November 1942, could have (very hypothetically) hit Yamato ten times, still the small USN battleship would have gone down to Iron Bottom Sound, with or without USS Washington assistance.

[Bgile]

And Yamato was not vulnerable to the guns of any other warship at any practical range whatsoever, whilst the other battleships were quite vulnerable to Yamato's 18" at any available combat range. South Dakota, if capable of hitting anything on November 1942, could have (very hypothetically) hit Yamato ten times, still the small USN battleship would have gone down to Iron Bottom Sound, with or without USS Washington assistance.

Yamato would have been vulnerable at the range of less than 9,000 yds which existed against Kirishima. Only her turret faces couldn't be penetrated.

[lwd]

Not only the turret faceplates but the main "armoured box" (or AoN scheme) of the Yamato could withstand any punch from any battleship of WWII. If you read Skulsky Book and G&D it is very clear that the Yamato armor will stop cold anything in the naval inventories of the world powers.

If they say that they are obviously wrong. One need only look at the armor and penetration tables. However I suspect you are missinterpreting what was said.

Anyway, if the Iowa's 16" are not enough to work it's way against the Yamato then it is completely imposible that the Twins' 11" can be considered. At long or close range Yamato was designed to deal with any kind of existing battleship. Now, the Montana could have been an issue, but we will never know.

Since your basic assumption is flawed so are your conclusions. Montana had the same guns as Iowa by the way. Note also that if one Montana is judge on a par with Yamato 2 Iowas should be better yet. Indeed two of any of the US fast battleships would have been better than one Montana at least in so far as defeating a single foe.

[lwd]

... I dont think the US fast battleships carried HC shells unless they were planning a bombardment mission.
....

Since their use was invisioned vs DDs and some cruisers I suspect at least some were carried at most times.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-45_mk6.htm states

... During the entire action off Casablanca, USS Massachusetts in 134 salvos fired a total of 786 rounds out ... All of these were AP projectiles, as the ship had not yet received any HC projectiles.
...

Which implies she would normally have been carrying them they just weren't available (bombardment was very much in the cards for this one too). Furthermore http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm states:

... The HC Mark 13 .... For standardization purposes, the Mark 13 was also issued to all newer battleships,

Not definitive but certainly pointing toward their standard usage.

Yes, that covers most of the likely battle ranges.

Since several battleship actions took place outside those ranges I sugest your defintion of "most likely" is flawed.

Since they can't penetrate Yamato's vitals except at very extreme ranges, short or long, they arn't likely to do much more damage than the Scharnhorst's 11" can do.

Given that they carry considerably more kinetic energy than the 11"er's do I suspect this conclusion is also flawed.

Where did you find this? I've wondered if this tactic was just something that armchair admirals came up with or it was one that navies of the time actually considered. This is the first I've seen to indicate the latter.

GkDos100 speaks to this. The BB59 manual reccomends only using AP on heavily armoured targets.

I've seen references to using HE on lightly armored targest I just hadn't seen any direct references to battleships using it on other battleships.

I agree that two Bismarcks with their own precise RDFC could be a threat to Yamato. However the issue is that whilst the Germans fire (Bismarcks) also do the Japanese.

I'm refering to the likely effect of HE fire from both twins on the soft ends of the ship, its speed, stability, and to the firecontrol sensors and communications, and human resources. If the Germans can hit first (even HE near misses could be effective) and more often, as is likely, the Yamato may not be able to reply very effectively.

That's a point I've been trying to make as well. There's also the chance of a lucky hit doing even more damage. The route to Yamato's secondary magazines being one such possiblity.

Bgile:

The 16"/50 AP Mark 8 Mods 1-5 begin penetrating Yamato's deck armor at 34,000 yds. It begins to penetrate citadel vertical armor at 14,000 yds, so the immune zone against that weapon is from 14K to 34K yds. She would be vulnerable at the ranges where Kirishima was engaged.

From what I had read there is no evidence that any shell from USN inventory could do that. In this fantasy the Yamato is as vulnerable as Kirishima on the same ranges, which is, by all practical standards, more than absurd.

Then I suggest you do more reading. Actually since we've gone over this many times I suspect you take more time and get a better understanding of what you read.

And Yamato was not vulnerable to the guns of any other warship at any practical range whatsoever,

This is frankly absurd. Yamato could take damage from even destroyer class weapons at any range they could hit her. Furthermore there is a chance such damage could be quite significant.

South Dakota, if capable of hitting anything on November 1942, could have (very hypothetically) hit Yamato ten times, still the small USN battleship would have gone down to Iron Bottom Sound, with or without USS Washington assistance.

That's your opinion and a possiblity. It is however unlikely IMO, Yamato is very likely to get the worst of this exchange especially at these ranges.

[Dave Saxton]

If your going to fight a Yamato at close range, your better off fighting it in a Bismarck or Littorio, given their unconventional belt protection. The German 15" can defeat the Yamato's inclined belt intact out to about 13,000 yards, and that's assuming the Japanese belt armour of such thickness is of high quality.

[paul.mercer]

It all depends who is in charge of the twins, remember they were scared off by three elderly British Battleships and one eldery Battlecruiser on four occasions (although Rodney would have been a very tough proposition). Frankly, if I was the German commander I would run like hell if confronted by a Yamoto class ship, one has only to look at the damage caused to Sharnhorst by DOY's 14" shells, let alone 18" bricks. forget it, it's a no win situation!

[Bgile]

If your going to fight a Yamato at close range, your better off fighting it in a Bismarck or Littorio, given their unconventional belt protection. The German 15" can defeat the Yamato's inclined belt intact out to about 13,000 yards, and that's assuming the Japanese belt armour of such thickness is of high quality.

I can understand Bismarck, but why Littorio?

[Bgile]

If your going to fight a Yamato at close range, your better off fighting it in a Bismarck or Littorio, given their unconventional belt protection. The German 15" can defeat the Yamato's inclined belt intact out to about 13,000 yards, and that's assuming the Japanese belt armour of such thickness is of high quality.

I think Bismarck would be very vulnerable to diving shell anywhere below where her scarp meets her belt. Especially IJN diving shells.

[Dave Saxton]

At the ranges we have been talking about???????

[Dave Saxton]

I can understand Bismarck, but why Littorio?

The Littorio's de-capping belt system.

[Bgile]

At the ranges we have been talking about???????

I suppose that depends on the wake. Bismarck's belt was pretty shallow. What was the range where PoW's shell hit? I know it got down to about 15,000 yds at DS.