Scharnhorst and Gneisenau vs Yamato

[miro777]

hey....
hahaha good szenario...
thats basically the whole german fleet....

but wat about this szenario???

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau engaging Yamato...
but the GZ is nearby....

she sends in divebombers and torpedo airplanes....
then it would turn to the german side na?

wasn't the Yamato sunk by aircraft?

adios
miro

[dale3242]

The assumption seems to be that the battle would occur in daylight with excellent visibility. Although on the face of it, the German ships would seem to have little chance against the Yamato, the Yamato had some serious weaknesses. First, as mentioned in a previous post, the 6.1" secondary magazines were inadequately protected. Second, the main battery had a much lower rate of fire compared with the German ships (1.5 shells/gun/minute versus 3.5 shells/gun/minute). Third and last, the Yamato was armored in the classic "all or nothing" method. This left large areas of the hull outside the citadel at the ends without protection. Also, the main belt was sloped inwards and also acted as the torpedo belt. The Scharnhorst class have some both obvious and not so obvious strengths. First, German radar development, although behind the Allies, was more advanced than the Japanese. Second, the German ships have a clear 5 knot advantage in speed. Finally, at short ranges the German ships are very hard to disable. The German side armor consisted of the main belt, the lower armored deck angled to the bottom of the main belt, and a separate torpedo belt. The total thickness was (Siegfried Breyer) 350 + 105 (inclined) + 45 mm = 500 mm (19.7 inches). As in the Battle of the River Plate, the German ships should operate well separated from each other. They should close to relatively short range so that their very thin deck armor is less exposed to penetration by a lucky hit. Whichever ship is the main target by the Yamato should concentrate on chasing salvos and presenting a difficult target rather than gunnery. Both ships should be firing common shells rather than armor piercing. This would maximize the damage to the unarmored areas of the Yamato. If the Yamato's fire is as bad as in the Battle of Samar and the German initial gunnery is as good as against the Glorious, the Yamato is going to be hit repeatedly before scoring on either German ship. (Interestingly the total weight of shells per minute is not in the Yamato's favor. 694 lbs (HE) X 3.5 X 18 = 43722 versus 3219 (AP) X 1.5 X 9 = 43456 (Data taken from Tony DiGiulian - NavWeaps) With AP shells the weigh per minute is in the German's favor, but AP shells would actually cause less damage as they could not be expected to penetrate at more than 10,000 yards. The Yamato on the other hand, would be favored in a classic long range exchange in daylight in good weather. A single hit at long range on either German ship, such as the Duke of York versus Scharnhorst, would likely knock that ship out of the fight and cause the Germans to retire if they still had the speed to do so. So in summary, in daylight and good weather, the Germans shadow out of gun range. In poor weather, rough seas, the Germans close quickly in the manner of the British Cruisers at the Battle of River Plate.

[lwd]

The assumption seems to be that the battle would occur in daylight with excellent visibility.

This is a common assumption but such conditions tend to favor Yamato.

First, as mentioned in a previous post, the 6.1" secondary magazines were inadequately protected.

While they were a very small target and required tricky geometries to reach.

Second, the main battery had a much lower rate of fire compared with the German ships (1.5 shells/gun/minute versus 3.5 shells/gun/minute).

Navweapons lists the Yamato as haveing a rate of fire of 1.5-2 rpm. Furthermore at longer range time of flight considerations are likely to dominate dropping all ships under 2 rpm.

Third and last, the Yamato was armored in the classic "all or nothing" method. This left large areas of the hull outside the citadel at the ends without protection.

Well if we look at http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Pe ... _Japan.htm we see Yamato's main guns punching holes in the twins belt armor at 30,000 yards. Of course at that range deck hits might be more likely but the twins have to get inside 20,000 yards before their decks are safe.

... Finally, at short ranges the German ships are very hard to disable. The German side armor consisted of the main belt, the lower armored deck angled to the bottom of the main belt, and a separate torpedo belt. The total thickness was (Siegfried Breyer) 350 + 105 (inclined) + 45 mm = 500 mm (19.7 inches).

Let's see according to the chart linked above Yamato can penetrate 19.7 inches of German armor at ranges under 18,000 yards and will be getting partial penetrations at under 22,000 yards. I'm not sure that Yamato will find them difficult to disable.

As in the Battle of the River Plate, the German ships should operate well separated from each other.

This invites defeat in detail.

They should close to relatively short range so that their very thin deck armor is less exposed to penetration by a lucky hit.

Japanese doctrine was too fight at long range. If the twins are widely sperated Yamato can steer in such a way that she can bring her full main battery to bear on one of them while lowering the closure rate to some extent and making it so the other will either have to give up the use of her rear battery or not close.

Whichever ship is the main target by the Yamato should concentrate on chasing salvos and presenting a difficult target rather than gunnery.

What happens if Yamato has one turret fire on one ship and two on the other? They both salvo chase to the point where they can't close or shoot?

Both ships should be firing common shells rather than armor piercing.

That's probably a good idea as they won't be able to even penetrate the bulkhead armor until they get within 20,000 yards and can only begin to penetrate Yamato's deck at 46,000 yards!
http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Pe ... ermany.htm

.. If the Yamato's fire is as bad as in the Battle of Samar and the German initial gunnery is as good as against the Glorious, the Yamato is going to be hit repeatedly before scoring on either German ship.

It's not at all clear that her gunnery was that bad off Samar. Indeed she seems to have gotten a first salvo straddle at over 30,000 yards. And one that was close enough that her spotter plane claimed a hit. Against a battleship sized target it may have been.

... A single hit at long range on either German ship, such as the Duke of York versus Scharnhorst, would likely knock that ship out of the fight and cause the Germans to retire if they still had the speed to do so.

I wouldn't count the Germans out that quickly. Certainlly a single hit could cause severe damage but there are plenty of areas where such a hit wouldn't cause catastrophic damage.

So in summary, in daylight and good weather, the Germans shadow out of gun range.

If the strategic situation allows them that option. Note that Japanese optics were quite good and that they practiced night fighting to a considerable extent so the lack of daylight doesn't guarantee the Germans an advantage.

In poor weather, rough seas, the Germans close quickly in the manner of the British Cruisers at the Battle of River Plate.

Didn't the Germans have problems with their main batteries in rough seas on a number of occasions? To win the Germans basically have to take out Yamato's directors before Yamato takes them out, excepting a very lucky hit on the secondaries (one which the 11" HE rounds may not even be capable of). The Germans do get more rolls of the dice but they have a harder roll to make. I'd put my money on Yamato in this one.

[RF]

I have always been puzzled at the logic of this scenario - the twins are too lightweight in firepower, too big and unwieldy to be torpedo boats......

[Karl Heidenreich]

No twins nor Iowas nor whatever could have taken the Yamatos, period. Is that so hard to understand?

[lwd]

No twins nor Iowas nor whatever could have taken the Yamatos, period. Is that so hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand it's just wrong. If it's a two on one then there's a good chance (better than even) that any two modern BBs with the exception of the 4 small ones have a good shot at taking out Yamato although at some price. In a one on one depending on the parameters Iowa may have a better then even chance against Yamato.

[Karl Heidenreich]

The Twins with 11" guns could have hardly beat a KGV or a Bismarck Class (maybe Richelieu) but never the Yamatos. Maybe not even two Bismarcks or two Iowas could have...

[lwd]

The Twins with 11" guns could have hardly beat a KGV or a Bismarck Class (maybe Richelieu) but never the Yamatos.

One of the surest ways to make sure you are incorrect is to post an unquivacable statement. The twins would indead have a hard time defeating Yamato but it would certainly have been possible. A close range knife fight for instance where their rate of fire and radar would give them an advantage is circumstance where they might actually have an edge. But even in a daytime open sea engagement if they get lucky and take out Yamato's fire control or the 2ndary vulnerability turns out to be real and they get lucky. Against a KGV if they are both there and determined to fight to the finish I'm not sure I'd give the KGV the edge or the Bismarck for that matter.

Maybe not even two Bismarcks or two Iowas could have...

I disagree either of these could have given her a rough time and depending on conditions again might well have the edge.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Lee:

The twins would indead have a hard time defeating Yamato but it would certainly have been possible. A close range knife fight for instance where their rate of fire and radar would give them an advantage is circumstance where they might actually have an edge. But even in a daytime open sea engagement if they get lucky and take out Yamato's fire control or the 2ndary vulnerability turns out to be real and they get lucky.

Yamato's vitals are unvulnerable to the ANY WWII warship. The 11 inchers from the Twins would simply bounce against Yamato. About a close knife, I do not believe that the Japanese skipper would allow those ships to close the range, he will simply not cross his arms and watch them come, day or night. Remember Hood trying to approach Bismarck to achieve the "close knife". And I cannot imagine what an 18" could do to a 35K ton sized (small) battleship, even a German one.

Against a KGV if they are both there and determined to fight to the finish I'm not sure I'd give the KGV the edge or the Bismarck for that matter.

I agree that two KGV (as in the old thread) or much like two Bismarcks, could be a much dangerous threat. Still, neither the KGV nor the Bismarck's guns are able to penetrate Yamato's vitals. Maybe Yamato would have to disengage after one of the oponents is already sunk and the other also damaged. Like Graf Spee against three lesser units which did NOT sunk her.

I disagree either of these could have given her a rough time and depending on conditions again might well have the edge.

Pay attention that here I used the word "maybe". Of course, considering the last two years of debates is much more likely that two KGV or two Bismarcks could represent a more serious threat to Yamato than the Iowa. The only "almost" sure way the USN had to defeat Yamato was the Montana, which was never built.

[lwd]

...Yamato's vitals are unvulnerable to the ANY WWII warship.

That is complete rubish. Only the face plates of her turrets can come anywhere close to claiming that and in the real world even the space they were protecting wouldn't necessarily be safe.

The 11 inchers from the Twins would simply bounce against Yamato.

At some ranges, however at ranges in excess (~12,000 yards) that Kirishima and the US battleships exchanged fire the twins could punch holes in Yamato's belt.

About a close knife, I do not believe that the Japanese skipper would allow those ships to close the range, he will simply not cross his arms and watch them come, day or night. Remember Hood trying to approach Bismarck to achieve the "close knife".

And the doctrine of both the US and Japanese navies was too fight at long range (i.e over 25,000 yards) yet Kirishima and the two US BBs exchanged fire at under 10,000 yards.

And I cannot imagine what an 18" could do to a 35K ton sized (small) battleship, even a German one.

There's no question that it's going to hurt. The question is can the twins degrade Yamato's fire control or gain either another lucky hit or a series of them before they are out of commission. The odds aren't good for them but the chance is there.

... Still, neither the KGV nor the Bismarck's guns are able to penetrate Yamato's vitals.

That is simply not true.

I disagree either of these could have given her a rough time and depending on conditions again might well have the edge.

Pay attention that here I used the word "maybe". Of course, considering the last two years of debates is much more likely that two KGV or two Bismarcks could represent a more serious threat to Yamato than the Iowa. The only "almost" sure way the USN had to defeat Yamato was the Montana, which was never built.

Sorry but Yamato is better off facing two KGV's or Bismarcks than she is facing two Iowas, except perhaps in a "knife fight".

[Dave Saxton]

. Both ships should be firing common shells rather than armor piercing. This would maximize the damage to the unarmored areas of the Yamato...... but AP shells would actually cause less damage as they could not be expected to penetrate at more than 10,000 yards.....

This is very astute, as German gunnery doctrine reccomended the use of HE or HE mixed in in cases of the armour over matching the penetrative power of the shells or in cases of lightly or unamoured targets. Considering the likely superiority of the the German radar directed fire, day or night, short range or long range, the vast exapanses of unamoured hull and exposed fighting positions are likely to suffer greatly-quickly. With 18, 36, or 54+ high explosive rounds raining down every minute, A Yamato may be mission killed before it can effective serious damage on it's under matched opponants.

Since the US 16" guns could not defeat the Yamato's main armour protection at likely battle ranges either, the little German ships could be just as effective as two Iowas could in such a scenario.

The total thickness was (Siegfried Breyer) 350 + 105 (inclined) + 45 mm = 500 mm (19.7 inches).

The 105mm scarps behaves as if it's much thicker than 105mm because of the inclination and because its dealing with de-capped shells. Its more like 350+200+45. But there is a better way of quantifying this. What happens is that the necessary velocity required to penetrate intact the combination of plates will be greater than velocity that the shell can remain intact while penetrating this combination of plates.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Lee,

Not only the turret faceplates but the main "armoured box" (or AoN scheme) of the Yamato could withstand any punch from any battleship of WWII. If you read Skulsky Book and G&D it is very clear that the Yamato armor will stop cold anything in the naval inventories of the world powers. In the Yamato vs. Iowa thread, I do believe, I posted the complete set of penetration data of the US 16" and the ranges of the Yamato's 18" penetrating it's shield. The Iowa, per example, do not have an IZ against the Yamato whilst the latter is not at peril against evenm the superheavies. If even Bismarck will not be at such stakes then it is less one for the Yamato.

Anyway, if the Iowa's 16" are not enough to work it's way against the Yamato then it is completely imposible that the Twins' 11" can be considered. At long or close range Yamato was designed to deal with any kind of existing battleship. Now, the Montana could have been an issue, but we will never know.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Dave:

Since the US 16" guns could not defeat the Yamato's main armour protection at likely battle ranges either, the little German ships could be just as effective as two Iowas could in such a scenario.

I agree that two Bismarcks with their own precise RDFC could be a threat to Yamato. However the issue is that whilst the Germans fire (Bismarcks) also do the Japanese. The 18" hit, which would likely happens after some fire exchange is too heavy a hit even for Bismarck's superior space array.

Now, if we stick to the issue of the Twins I do believe that there is no chance for the German "small" battleships to prevail. This is an oversized "river Plate".

[RF]

I don't think that the River Plate action is a feasible comparison, not least because the two light cruisers were handled like destroyers. The twins, although fast, are hardly destroyers. And AGS had only two of the big triple turrets, not the three Yamato had.

One thought did come to my mind though. Suppose the three Dutch battlecruisers envisaged under the Design 1047 project had been completed, and the three of them encountered Yamato - I think they would have sttod perhaps a marginally better chance than the twins, but again we are using three of them opposed to the German two.

[lwd]

...This is very astute, as German gunnery doctrine reccomended the use of HE or HE mixed in in cases of the armour over matching the penetrative power of the shells

Where did you find this? I've wondered if this tactic was just something that armchair admirals came up with or it was one that navies of the time actually considered. This is the first I've seen to indicate the latter.

... Since the US 16" guns could not defeat the Yamato's main armour protection at likely battle ranges either, the little German ships could be just as effective as two Iowas could in such a scenario.

That depends a great deal on what you consider "likely battle ranges" and "main armor protection".