Kreigsmarine vs British Home Fleet

[Kyler]

As it is the Kriegsmarine vs Home Fleet, another aspect to this would be the inclusion of the U-boat force in support of the surface ships. However it does take it further away from the consideration of the big ships taking on each other.

From what reading I have done, especially during WW1, attempts at coordinated efforts between surface units and fleet subs were pretty much floops in every effort. So I doubt either sub force would improve either situation maybe with the exception of the late war German subs.

[yellowtail3]

German and Italian fantasy fleet together, after the Italians make fantasy sortie through Gibralter into the Atlantic. Hmmm... where are they gonna get the gas for the trip?

They get scuppered by the RN, with likely assist from the USN.

No gas.

[alecsandros]

German and Italian fantasy fleet together, after the Italians make fantasy sortie through Gibralter into the Atlantic. Hmmm... where are they gonna get the gas for the trip?

They get scuppered by the RN, with likely assist from the USN.

No gas.

IIRC, the Italian BBs had realy limited range. Only with tankers along the way coudl they enter the Atlantic. But let's say they do, and join the Germans, in late 1941:

We'd have 5 modern Axis BBs (2 Bismarck, 3 Vittorio Venetto), 3 older BBs (Italian ones), 2 modern battlecruisers and 3 pocket battleships, against WHAT? Some 20 new or modernised BBs and BCs? Not to mention the overwhelming superiority of the ROyal Navy in CAs, CLs and DDs!
The surface naval war would be over in a couple of hours...

[RF]

....after the Italians make fantasy sortie through Gibralter into the Atlantic. Hmmm... where are they gonna get the gas for the trip?

Spain and French North Africa......

[RF]

We'd have 5 modern Axis BBs (2 Bismarck, 3 Vittorio Venetto), 3 older BBs (Italian ones), 2 modern battlecruisers and 3 pocket battleships, against WHAT? Some 20 new or modernised BBs and BCs? Not to mention the overwhelming superiority of the ROyal Navy in CAs, CLs and DDs!
The surface naval war would be over in a couple of hours...

Assuming that the RN forces are concentrated and can all keep pace with the Axis ships..... In reality they wouldn't be, they would be scattered around the theatres of war as they were against Bismarck.

A canny Axis Fleet Commander could have fun here, picking off parts of the RN forces one by one.....

[lwd]

We'd have 5 modern Axis BBs (2 Bismarck, 3 Vittorio Venetto), 3 older BBs (Italian ones), 2 modern battlecruisers and 3 pocket battleships, against WHAT? Some 20 new or modernised BBs and BCs? Not to mention the overwhelming superiority of the ROyal Navy in CAs, CLs and DDs!
The surface naval war would be over in a couple of hours...

Assuming that the RN forces are concentrated and can all keep pace with the Axis ships..... In reality they wouldn't be, they would be scattered around the theatres of war as they were against Bismarck.

A canny Axis Fleet Commander could have fun here, picking off parts of the RN forces one by one.....

Well first it's 5 modern first rate BBs, 2 modern small BBs, and 3 older BBs, The "pocket battleships" are as the Germans later rated them just somewhat odd CAs. In order to unite this force one or the other force has to get past Gibraltar without taking significant damage. If the Germans go into the Med then Home fleet goes to Gibraltar and they are pretty well bottled up there. Although they can make life interesting for the British fleet at Alexandria at least until the British force from Gibraltar catches them at sea. If it's the other way then the Britt BBs at Alexandria can be used against Italy itself.

[RNfanDan]

Need I remind you all, neither the KM nor RN possessed "BB"s, "CV"s, "CL"s, "DD"s, "CA"s, etc., during WW2? Both navies DID have battleships, cruisers and destroyers, as well the RN had aircraft carriers, but none of these were designated using American-style BUSHIPS (almost rhymes--for a good reason--with "bullshit") NAVSPEAK.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Need I remind you all, neither the KM nor RN possessed "BB"s, "CV"s, "CL"s, "DD"s, "CA"s, etc., during WW2? Both navies DID have battleships, cruisers and destroyers, as well the RN had aircraft carriers, but none of these were designated using American-style BUSHIPS (almost rhymes--for a good reason--with "bullshit") NAVSPEAK.

You are very right, very. It´s a very bad costume to adopt the "all american bs to designate other´s accomplishments". I have done it and I´m sorry, very sorry.

[yellowtail3]

Need I remind you all, neither the KM nor RN possessed "BB"s, "CV"s, "CL"s, "DD"s, "CA"s, etc., during WW2? Both navies DID have battleships, cruisers and destroyers, as well the RN had aircraft carriers, but none of these were designated using American-style BUSHIPS (almost rhymes--for a good reason--with "bullshit") NAVSPEAK.

Sure they did. Maybe not 'designated' using 'Navspeak', but the designations are still accurate. So, no need for any superfluous & irrelevant 'reminding'

Frigate sailors do it with one good screw.

[Legend]

Assuming the one screw is always good.

[Karl Heidenreich]

yellowtail:

So, no need for any superfluous & irrelevant 'reminding'

Why is it that you are so insolent? No one is offending you, why do you have to be offensive? I don´t know José Rico but to my understanding your conduct is that of an internet troll, whatever you knowledge is wide in naval topics.

You do things in order just to upset people. Some of them just refrain from answering and others, not that inteligent (as me) answer.

Please, be respectful to what others think, specially the British who have standed alongside your country in all circumstances, even when it didn´t deserve.

[yellowtail3]

Simmer down, Karl... no need to be upset.

...my understanding your conduct is that of an internet troll, whatever you knowledge is wide in naval topics.

Relax, you've not been insulted (nor has anyone else, so far as I can tell). Have a drink. Or two. I'm doing that specialized reading you assigned me!

This is the second time you've nagged me about being respectful towards the RN. I've never been otherwise; relax and let them take care of themselves, as they care capable of defending themselves, should need ever arise.

[RF]

Well first it's 5 modern first rate BBs, 2 modern small BBs, and 3 older BBs, The "pocket battleships" are as the Germans later rated them just somewhat odd CAs. In order to unite this force one or the other force has to get past Gibraltar without taking significant damage. If the Germans go into the Med then Home fleet goes to Gibraltar and they are pretty well bottled up there. Although they can make life interesting for the British fleet at Alexandria at least until the British force from Gibraltar catches them at sea. If it's the other way then the Britt BBs at Alexandria can be used against Italy itself.

In my scenario Gibraltar would be neutralised, presumably by capture as Hitler planned. If its in the Med, then the Axis can deploy full force of Luftwaffe strength, together with a blockaded Malta. In that case the Axis hold all the cards, and stukas and SM79's will reduce RN forces to where the surface ships can finish the job......

[lwd]

Looks to me like there's a lot of details missing then.
Part is when do the various ships become available? When does Gibralter fall? What else is happening? Is the US in the war? (even if not directly involved it may affect British ship dispositions).

[RF]

Inevitably there will be a lot of preconditions in order for the Axis forces military commanders to consider a straight confrontation with the British Home Fleet to be a winnable situation, particulary as no battle takes place in complete isolation to the general backdrop of the war.