Kreigsmarine vs British Home Fleet

[Legend]

Bismarck waits for Tirpitz to be completed, the Twins and whatever heavy ships are in France do the Channel Dash, and they all sail out to sink the Royal Navy's Home Fleet. The Luftwaffe manages to distract or destroy any possible interception from the Royal Air Force. Who would win? Kriegsmarine vs British Home Fleet!

[paulcadogan]

What constitutes the Home Fleet? late 1941 or early 1942?

If you wait for Tirpitz then that means Duke of York might be involved, Renown may have been back from Gibraltar, Hood would stil be afloat...

King George V, PoW, DoY., Hood, Renown, Repulse? Advantage Home Fleet (specially beefed up because of the bigger twins!).

KGV, DoY, Hood, Renown? Hood & Renown batter the smaller Twins then help KGV & DoY with the bigger Twins. Rough going nevertheless!

[Bgile]

What happened to Rodney, Nelson, and all the QE class ships?

[Kyler]

The Brit's hands down, the German's would put up a gallant fight but in the end they would gets their butt's beaten BAD!

[paulcadogan]

What happened to Rodney, Nelson, and all the QE class ships?

The scenario calls for the "Home Fleet". Most of those were in the Med - though you're right - Rodney was back with the Home Fleet in early 1942. But her slow speed would be a limiting factor in a high speed battle - much like Ramillies at Cape Spartivento (left in Renown's wake during the pursuit of the Italians).

Question though: If Bismarck & Tirpitz had been together as the Big Twins in late 1941 - would the British still have sent PoW to the Far East?

[tommy303]

Actually, I don't think the deciding factor in such a confrontation would be the heavy units themselves; rather I think the decisive factor would be the greater number of cruisers and destroyers available to the Royal Navy.

[RF]

It might be more constructive to consider a 1942 confrontation between a combined KM and RM battle fleet, assuming the Italian battlewagons can get past Gibraltar unscathed. And no POW in the British Home Fleet - as it was resting in the Gulf of Siam.....

[paulcadogan]

And no POW in the British Home Fleet - as it was resting in the Gulf of Siam.....

But if Bismarck had not been sunk and had been joined by Tirpitz I don't think PoW would have been sent to Singapore. Might have been Nelson, Rodney and maybe Repulse....

[RF]

Possibly not, but Nelson and Rodney were slowcatches compared to the Japanese ships. I think one of the KGV's would have been sent, to accompany Repulse.

[Bgile]

If the US is in the war and Bismarck and Tirpitz are still around, you have to add USS North Carolina to the Home Fleet, followed shortly by USS Washington.

[Karl Heidenreich]

If the US is in the war and Bismarck and Tirpitz are still around, you have to add USS North Carolina to the Home Fleet, followed shortly by USS Washington.

Two years ago I will have said that this pair of additions would certainly seal the fate of the German couple. However after reading so much and from such good authors that´s not the case today. For the reasons explained and covered in lenght in other threads I will grant a serious chance to the Germans against this clearly limited vessels. I´m not implying a certain German victory, as it is implied in the reverse situation, but things are not as easy and the real chance of allied victory rests (as it did in the real case scenario) in numerical superiority. Of course I think that the chances of the Germans would have increased a bit more facing the South Dakota class BBs instead of the North Carolina Class BBs.

Warmest regards

[Karl Heidenreich]

Actually, I don't think the deciding factor in such a confrontation would be the heavy units themselves; rather I think the decisive factor would be the greater number of cruisers and destroyers available to the Royal Navy.

Agreed. Also the CVs must be considered. The Axis lack of it was determining factor.

[lwd]

The older slower British BBs might not make it to the intial engagement but they also mean even if they win it if the Germans take much damage then they may have to fight a second engagment while still suffering from the first and low on ammo.

[lwd]

...Two years ago I will have said that this pair of additions would certainly seal the fate of the German couple. However after reading so much and from such good authors that´s not the case today. ...

??? Even if you don't rate them as over the Bismarcks it's hard to see why they don't clearly tip the balance in favor of the allied fleet.

[RF]

As it is the Kriegsmarine vs Home Fleet, another aspect to this would be the inclusion of the U-boat force in support of the surface ships. However it does take it further away from the consideration of the big ships taking on each other.