Twins vs Dunkerque/Strasbourg

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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miro777
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Post by miro777 » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:30 pm

hey

well well
i would certainly say the Scharnhorsts would have killed the french

i agree with all ur arguments about speed, guns and protection.
but we often say that the Scharnhorst was a 'sick' ship cuz she always had problems.
i would say those problesm always cam from the rough seas she sailed in.
(off norway, etc.)
therfore i would greatly lead the outcome of that battle on the weather conditions and the area, the battle would have take place...
if it would be in the rough seas off norway or in the calmer seas of the South Atlantic.
The Scharnhorst were very wet ships and so the better weather conditions would have given them the REAL advantages,
but otherwise there was no big difference between the two ship classes.
cuz im german i would still have to belief that the SCharnhorst would have won, becuz of various factor.

adios
miro

one note: ships of the KM would never FLEE! ok?
Die See ruft....

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:12 pm

miro777 wrote:hey one note: ships of the KM would never FLEE! ok?
Take a look at Tirpitz's Operation Rösselsprung on 5-6 July 1942, when the situation turned very sour due to strong opposing forces and the orders even at the start of the operation stated that retreat is the better part of valor :negative:

FT 1246/98 Gruppe Nord an Flotte:
Lage Beurteilung: Schwere Einheiten letztmalig 17.45 Uhr --- (unklare Gruppen)--- Geleitzug nur Kreuzer und Zerstörer.
Eine Kreuzergruppe 0110 Uhr durch U’Boot in AE 2440 mit Westkurs und hoher Fahrt gesichtet. Trägergruppe 06.45 Uhr in AB 2732 festgestellt, Kurs 270º, mittlere Fahrt; vermutlich Wartestellung. Seegebiet zwischen 14º und 26º Ost bei guter Sicht heute Morgen eingesehen und Feindfrei [sic] gemeldet. Nach bisherigen Unterlagen nur mit Kreuzern, Zerstörern und U’Booten am Geleitzug zu rechnen. Geleitzug in zwei Gruppen zerteilt, weit auseinandergezogen.
Zahlreiche Havaristen. Eigene U’Boote am Geleitzug. Liegeplatz Altafjord bisher durch Feind wahrscheinlich nicht erkannt.
Wahrscheinliches Operationsgebiet morgen Mittag AE 66 und 69. Auf Anmarschweg keine eigenen U’Boote. Bei Änderung Feindlage, besonders Trägerstandort, Rückruf vorbehalten.

Radio telegram 1246/98 from Group North to Fleet:
Assessment of situation: Heavy units [seen] for the last time at 1745 hours---(uncertain groups)---Convoy has only cruisers and destroyers. A group of cruisers observed at 0110 hours by U boat in AE 2440 heading West and at high speed. Carrier group 0645 hours detected in AB 2732, course 270º, moderate speed; presumably on standby. Region of seas between 14º and 26º East was checked out this AM during good visibility and reported free of enemy [vessels]. Based on present data one must expect only cruisers, destroyers and submarines at the convoy. The convoy is divided into two groups, separated by quite some distance. Numerous wrecks. Our U boats near the convoy. Mooring base in Alta Fjord probably not yet detected by enemy. Presumed area of operation tomorrow noon AE 66 and 69. Along approach route [will be] none of our own U boats. If enemy disposition changes, especially carrier location, recall is a prerogative.

Then:

21.47/2147
Kr [Kryptographisch] FT 2115/37 Gruppe Nord an Flottenchef:
“Abbrechen!”
Encrypted radio telegram 2115/37 from Group North to chief of fleet:
“Abort!”

21.51/2151
71º 38’ Nord
31º 05’ Ost [in der Barents See]

Kehrtwendung nach Bb. [Standort ist zu dieser Zeit ca. 700 km von Grimstad, 1200 km von Drontheim]

71º 38’ North
31º 05’ East [in the Barents Sea]
Reverse course to port. [Position is at this time approx. 700 km from Grimstad, 1200 km from Trondheim]
Ulrich

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miro777
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Post by miro777 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:43 pm

hey

you are right.
But who wouldn't turn away from a situation, which is unclear and where superior forces could be waiting to sink her. What i mean was that the ship and the crew would have never fled, wahtever the circumstances. It was often Hitler or Gruppe West/Nord etc. which decided to 'flee'.
The prestige loss, when Tirpitz is sunk etc.

but lets say in this scenario:
Scharnhorst + Gneisenau vs. the two french.
Clear conditions.
Why would the Germans ever flee??????????
they have superiority.
well
thats my opinion...
adios

miro
Die See ruft....

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:34 pm

Why would the Germans ever flee??????????
they have superiority.
well
thats my opinion...
adios
I agree 100% with Miro. I don´t see any reason why the Germans can´t win over the French any time: the historical records (as von Moltke´s instruments of learning war in peace time) teach that the Germans at least fight. And Miro is right again with the argument that it was Hitler´s and his naval command not to commit his surface units more often or to risk them, it wasn´t a lack of courage or desicion of the German "field" naval commanders.

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miro777
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Post by miro777 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:58 pm

thanx for the support
Die See ruft....

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