H class vs Iowa

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bismarck space arrayed armour would have defended pretty well from USN heavy shells, so a much bigger and armoured ship would have been better suited to defend the vitals from that big carrier escort that was never intended, anyway, to fight a naval superiority duel without air support. At the end Lee never send them against Yamato even being in outstanding numerical superiority.

[lwd]

Of course Lee didn't have a chance to. If Bismarck didn't hold up all that well to Rodney's fire there's a question of whether a somewhat bigger ship based on her will hold up to Iowa's.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Well, that's the problem of the Iowa Class battleships, that never got any measurement in actual combat against their peers. Which was also the problem with some other vessels in WWII, but, let's say, the Yamato would have not refused combat at the Ten Go mission which is the determinant factor with the USN BBs: they refused to send them to fight and sent the planes to tackle them. Not that I blamed them for that, I would have done the same against Yamato.

Now, Bismarck didn't hold up just because she was being fired upon very close ranges in which NO battleship on Earth was designed to withstand, not Bismarck, not Iowa nor Yamato. What happened on May27th was unique and unexpected to everybody, even Tovey. In the case of Bismarck what we can discuss was Sowrdfish's hit, not Rodney. If the same thing would have happened, but reversed, Rodney or KGV or South Dak or North Cal doing 7 knots, not manouverable, against, let's say Bismarck and Tirpitz, the result could have been analogous at the best.

[lwd]

... Now, Bismarck didn't hold up just because she was being fired upon very close ranges in which NO battleship on Earth was designed to withstand, not Bismarck, not Iowa nor Yamato. ....

Except the hit that took out her forward battery was hardly at very close range.

[Djoser]

What range was it, I forget?

Nonetheless, posit a Bismarck in the kind of excellent shape he was in at Denmark Straits, with his crew as alert and motivated, going up against the Rodney alone? Different story than 'not holding up so well', I suspect. I doubt the Rodney would have met such an end as the Hood, and a lucky shot or two early on could even give Rodney a victory in the end--maybe--but I wouldn't want to be on Rodney if I had to choose.

If the US monster 16" shells would be fused after penetrating 1 1/2" of armor, which the Bismarck had, then the same would certainly be true in the case of the H class. While the Iowa would be more vulnerable to even the somewhat lighter German 16", as opposed to 15" from Bismarck.

I need to do more research into H-39 class.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Djoser:

If the US monster 16" shells would be fused after penetrating 1 1/2" of armor, which the Bismarck had, then the same would certainly be true in the case of the H class. While the Iowa would be more vulnerable to even the somewhat lighter German 16", as opposed to 15" from Bismarck.

Good point that, on the other hand, agrees with Mullenheim Rechberg's assesment on the upper deck of Bismarck which task was precisely that. That was the object of the space array armor scheme over the AoN. The USN superheavies were designed to defeat the USN armor scheme, not the German.

[Bgile]

How would you have designed a shell to defeat the German armor, Karl?

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

How would you have designed a shell to defeat the German armor, Karl?

The allies find a way to defeat German armor, on land and sea: numerical superiority. For a single German battleship the USN and RN had at least five they can oppose, as they did with Bismarck. The allies could and did overwhelm the Germans with saturation. That's the way it was done because it was the only way.

[lwd]

... The allies find a way to defeat German armor, on land and sea: numerical superiority. For a single German battleship the USN and RN had at least five they can oppose, as they did with Bismarck. The allies could and did overwhelm the Germans with saturation. That's the way it was done because it was the only way.

No. Any of the modern battleships with the exception of the 4 small ones and Yamato had a decent chance of defeating each other. The allies didn't want an even battle they wanted to win. Overkill minimizes your own casualties as well and that's the route the allies took. I'd still give any of the US fast BB's a better than even chance against Bismarck but it would never have come to that.

[lwd]

What range was it, I forget?

Nonetheless, posit a Bismarck in the kind of excellent shape he was in at Denmark Straits, with his crew as alert and motivated, going up against the Rodney alone? Different story than 'not holding up so well', I suspect. ....

The point wasn't who wins the point was one hit early in the action appears to have taken out half Bismarck's guns. I.e. she didn't hold up well to them. Even if she was undamaged if Rodney got a hit like that early on she'd be the odds on favorite from there out. Starting fresh with both ships I'd say the odds are pretty close to even with these two. At least in a tactical fight. Put in the strategic perspective of WWII Bismarck would almost never be in a position where she could afford to duel Rodney.

[Karl Heidenreich]

lwd:

You are mistaken giving an even chance to the USN so called "fast" battleships (treaty limited displacement battleships is a much accurate term). At expected combat ranges the Bismarck stands a chance to adquire target almost at the same time that the South Dakota could, but with the advantage that the German ship, if it's deck gets hit early in the combat, had with it's 50 mm armoured upper deck to initiate early fuze, de cap or produce yaw at the incomming shell. On the other side the South Dak's deck, with it's much thinner one, do not stands the same chances to do the same.

Now, if we add some historic variables, as the gunnery of South Dak at II Guadalcanal, we can dare to say that the Bismarck could (or would?) hit the USN battleship first. If Friedman is credible at all (and damn he is) then hits on the perpedicular of the main belt of South Dak could also be dangerous and structural integrity is involved too.

Nope, the chances lay on the German side if the combat is even, one vs one. Only numerical superiority could grant a sure win of the South Dak.

[Bgile]

South Dakota's 38mm upper deck would be penetrated, but the much thicker MAD was immune to Bismarck's shells.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

South Dakota's 38mm upper deck would be penetrated, but the much thicker MAD was immune to Bismarck's shells.

Not that sure on this, but if it's is then Bismarck's own it will more than impenetrable by the same measures. However a 35 K ton BB is a weaker vessel than a 50 K ton one that exceeds the first one armor in every aspect.

[Djoser]

Hey guys this is about H class lol.

We are expanding the SD vs Bismarck thread here.

What range was it, I forget?

Nonetheless, posit a Bismarck in the kind of excellent shape he was in at Denmark Straits, with his crew as alert and motivated, going up against the Rodney alone? Different story than 'not holding up so well', I suspect. ....

The point wasn't who wins the point was one hit early in the action appears to have taken out half Bismarck's guns. I.e. she didn't hold up well to them. Even if she was undamaged if Rodney got a hit like that early on she'd be the odds on favorite from there out. Starting fresh with both ships I'd say the odds are pretty close to even with these two. At least in a tactical fight. Put in the strategic perspective of WWII Bismarck would almost never be in a position where she could afford to duel Rodney.

Well sure it took out the forward turrets, one of the amazing number of 'lucky' hits in the campaign. But in the time it took to do that--to a crippled ship after repeated attacks from a total of four battleships, a carrier, a handful of cruisers and destroyers--a fresh Bismarck would I suspect have found the range and be pounding away at the Rodney, perhaps getting his own 'lucky' crippling hit in first.


I think whoever said that any of the later battleship giants fighting would win as much by luck in hit location as any other reason was on the money. Still it's fun to compare the ships in hypothetical duels, in which case we should consider hypothetical ships like the H class or the Montanas, or the 'super Yamatos'.

Then there was that Soviet giant ship they were thinking of. Of course the Soviets were not so good with maintaining the big guns, as was observed when they had one of the R class British battleships post war for a couple years.

[boredatwork]

Bgile:

South Dakota's 38mm upper deck would be penetrated, but the much thicker MAD was immune to Bismarck's shells.

Not that sure on this, but if it's is then Bismarck's own it will more than impenetrable by the same measures. However a 35 K ton BB is a weaker vessel than a 50 K ton one that exceeds the first one armor in every aspect.

Sorry - am confused - 50 K?

Are you talking about Bismarck or H?