H class vs Iowa

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Djoser
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H class vs Iowa

Postby Djoser » Mon May 10, 2010 11:51 pm

I'm sure the 16" 2700 lb AP shells fired by Iowa would still be a problem, but what do you guys think of this duel? Might be one hell of a fight, I would think...

How much of an improvement would the H class have been? The armor would have been at least somewhat better, correct? How finalized was the design before it was shelved?

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RF
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby RF » Tue May 11, 2010 7:50 am

As the H class other existed really as outline plans its a bit difficult to consider this without the hypothetical embellishments to the H class that would make Iowa inferior. I'm inclined however to still go for the American ship.

It might be more interesting to consider H class versus Yamato, a real clash of heavyweights.....
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby lwd » Tue May 11, 2010 4:10 pm

Which H class?

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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby José M. Rico » Sat May 15, 2010 12:05 am

lwd wrote:Which H class?

I believe Djoser was thinking of H-39 armed with 8 x 16 inch guns. The first of the class was originally scheduled to be commissioned in 1943 just like the Iowa.

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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby Bgile » Sat May 15, 2010 2:05 am

Well, Iowa wasn't protected very well against her own guns, so probably not against H-39s either.

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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby Legend » Sat May 15, 2010 2:54 am

Iowa could withstand shells of her own calibre, until the introduction of the heavyweight shells later introduced in WWII... If my memory serves me correct. I can only assume, in the lightweight nature of Bismarck's shells for her 15in guns, that the 16in version would probably be the same.
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby Bgile » Sat May 15, 2010 6:19 am

Legend wrote:Iowa could withstand shells of her own calibre, until the introduction of the heavyweight shells later introduced in WWII... If my memory serves me correct. I can only assume, in the lightweight nature of Bismarck's shells for her 15in guns, that the 16in version would probably be the same.


It was never contemplated that Iowa would use the lighter shells. Her hoists were designed for the heavy ones. In fact I believe the gun itself was designed with them in mind.

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neil hilton
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby neil hilton » Mon May 17, 2010 1:36 pm

But no ship is shell proof over its entire hull and superstructure, therefore Iowa would be vulnerable and vice versa.
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby Bgile » Mon May 17, 2010 1:44 pm

neil hilton wrote:But no ship is shell proof over its entire hull and superstructure, therefore Iowa would be vulnerable and vice versa.


Yes, of course. No ship is invulnerable, but it helps to have armor that can withstand the other guy's shells when they hit the armored and therefore most important places on your ship.

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neil hilton
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby neil hilton » Mon May 17, 2010 1:56 pm

Accumulated damage from hits to non-vital unprotected areas could cause serious fires and or flooding. Possibly sufficient to knock the ship out of action, maybe even sink it.
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby Bgile » Mon May 17, 2010 4:16 pm

neil hilton wrote:Accumulated damage from hits to non-vital unprotected areas could cause serious fires and or flooding. Possibly sufficient to knock the ship out of action, maybe even sink it.


Theoretically, that's true. It's much better if you can penetrate armor though. Two examples come to mind, and they are San Francisco and South Dakota in the Guadalcanal campaign. Both ships were damaged extensively in areas where there wasn't any armor, but neither was in any danger of sinking and both continued to engage the enemy.

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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby lwd » Mon May 17, 2010 7:50 pm

comparing: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_16-52_skc34.htm
to: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm
It looks to me like the US ship has an advantage over 20,000 yards. On the otherhand I've heard a lot of praise for the bored out (16.5") version of these guns.
I"m getting conflicting data on the armor carried. Perhaps it would be best to post the stats as there seem to be a fair number of H designs out there.

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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby neil hilton » Tue May 18, 2010 9:46 am

Bgile wrote:
neil hilton wrote:Accumulated damage from hits to non-vital unprotected areas could cause serious fires and or flooding. Possibly sufficient to knock the ship out of action, maybe even sink it.


Theoretically, that's true. It's much better if you can penetrate armor though. Two examples come to mind, and they are San Francisco and South Dakota in the Guadalcanal campaign. Both ships were damaged extensively in areas where there wasn't any armor, but neither was in any danger of sinking and both continued to engage the enemy.


Where these ships in this campaign with others or were they alone?
I seriously doubt they could have floated with most of their unarmoured compartments flooded, their DC must have saved some bouyancy in there.
Were they able to move? If so they must have been very slow and thus very vulnerable.
If they were with others then the Japanese wouldn't have been able to concentrate their fire on them (to finish off the cripple).

In a 1 on 1 fight as postulated here both sides would be able to concentrate on each other, eventually everything penetratable would be wrecked and flooded and thus become dead weight dragging the ship down.
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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby Bgile » Tue May 18, 2010 1:27 pm

neil hilton wrote:In a 1 on 1 fight as postulated here both sides would be able to concentrate on each other, eventually everything penetratable would be wrecked and flooded and thus become dead weight dragging the ship down.


Yes, but it one side can penetrate the other's armor, the battle will be over long before the accumulated damage sinks one ship.

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Re: H class vs Iowa

Postby lwd » Tue May 18, 2010 5:04 pm

neil hilton wrote:
Bgile wrote: ...Two examples come to mind, and they are San Francisco and South Dakota in the Guadalcanal campaign. Both ships were damaged extensively in areas where there wasn't any armor, but neither was in any danger of sinking and both continued to engage the enemy.

Where these ships in this campaign with others or were they alone?

Niether ship was alone. That was pretty much against US doctrine.
I seriously doubt they could have floated with most of their unarmoured compartments flooded, their DC must have saved some bouyancy in there.
Were they able to move? If so they must have been very slow and thus very vulnerable.

SoDak's damage was mostly in her superstucture. She took essentially no floatation damage. While the damage she took may have been extensive it was for the most part readily repaired.
In a 1 on 1 fight as postulated here both sides would be able to concentrate on each other, eventually everything penetratable would be wrecked and flooded and thus become dead weight dragging the ship down.

Unlikely to reach that state unless they start out very close to each other. Of course at the ranges Kirishima and SoDak were exhcangeing fire there wasn't any place on Kirishima that SoDaks round couldn't reach except possibly for some areas below the water line. The same could be said for any other battleship afloat with the exception of Yamato and then only her turets would be excepted and then only if they were kept trained on SoDak. Of course in the latter case SoDak would also have been rather permiable to Yamato's guns.


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