Hello to all

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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RF
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Re: Hello to all

Postby RF » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:00 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:lwd:

Not for long. Bismarck was clearly sinking when she was scuttled. She might have lasted 10s of minutes or even hours but she was going down from the damage already inflicted the scuttling charges probably did no more than hasten the sinking and some have even discussed the possibility that they slowed the sinking by allowing her to settle on a more even keel and not capsize earlier.


Is there any foundation to your guessings?


If you read Ballard's book Karl you will see that the expert opinion on the condition of Bismarck was that the ship would have foundered in a matter of hours anyway from the torpedo damage on the stern.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

alecsandros
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Re: Hello to all

Postby alecsandros » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:53 pm

RF wrote: If you read Ballard's book Karl you will see that the expert opinion on the condition of Bismarck was that the ship would have foundered in a matter of hours anyway from the torpedo damage on the stern.

Hello,

My impression is that the latest Bismarck expedition (Ballard no 3) brought a different view on the subject: that Bismarck could float for at least 1 day after the British left the scene, if it wasn't for the scuttling.

From Wiki:

"The American expedition's final conclusions were strikingly different from the findings of the Anglo-American team; they estimated that Bismarck could still have floated for at least a day when the British vessels ceased fire and could have been captured by the Royal Navy, a position supported by the historian Ludovic Kennedy. Ballard found the hull sound, adding: "we found a hull that appears whole and relatively undamaged by the descent and impact".They concluded the direct cause of sinking was due to scuttling: sabotage of engine-room valves by her crew, as claimed by German survivors"

Indeed, Ballard's first expedition is a very nice reference to Bismarck's wreck and current condition, but it isn;t the only eye-witness report, and it's foundings do not match the other expeditions (they don't match each other to well, IIRC... Weird.. ?)

Cheers,
Alex

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Re: Hello to all

Postby lwd » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:14 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:lwd:
Not for long. Bismarck was clearly sinking when she was scuttled. She might have lasted 10s of minutes or even hours but she was going down from the damage already inflicted the scuttling charges probably did no more than hasten the sinking and some have even discussed the possibility that they slowed the sinking by allowing her to settle on a more even keel and not capsize earlier.

Is there any foundation to your guessings?

First of all it's not "my" guessing. If you look back through the various threads we've had on this subject you will find all this presented by others as a possiblity and not one that was refuted.

lwd
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Re: Hello to all

Postby lwd » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:20 pm

alecsandros wrote:
RF wrote: If you read Ballard's book Karl you will see that the expert opinion on the condition of Bismarck was that the ship would have foundered in a matter of hours anyway from the torpedo damage on the stern.

...My impression is that the latest Bismarck expedition (Ballard no 3) brought a different view on the subject: that Bismarck could float for at least 1 day after the British left the scene, if it wasn't for the scuttling.
From Wiki:
"The American expedition's final conclusions were strikingly different from the findings of the Anglo-American team; they estimated that Bismarck could still have floated for at least a day when the British vessels ceased fire and could have been captured by the Royal Navy, a position supported by the historian Ludovic Kennedy. Ballard found the hull sound, adding: "we found a hull that appears whole and relatively undamaged by the descent and impact".They concluded the direct cause of sinking was due to scuttling: sabotage of engine-room valves by her crew, as claimed by German survivors"
...

The problem with this is that the British didn't cease fire until after the scuttling had taken effect. Indeed didn't one of the last torpedo strikes occur well after Bismarck was clearly on her way down? So the question then is what condition she would have been in when the British left if there had been no scuttling. I suspect that if she had been abandoned a day would be very optomistic. Also consider that there were carrier aircraft capable of torpedo attack well within range and she was no longer capable of defending herself or maneuvering to avoid the torpedos. All in all I can't see Bismarck lasting more than a few more hours in the abscence of the scuttling order. As for capture that would seem highly problematic to me given not only the condition of Bismarck but the weather and the presence of U-boats.

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RF
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Re: Hello to all

Postby RF » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:21 pm

As far as I am aware boarding and capture was never considered by Tovey, not least because of his critical fuel situation.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.


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