How would you improve the IJN?

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
lwd
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Re: How would you improve the IJN?

Post by lwd » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:20 pm

Djoser wrote:... Now, the one most likely way I think Japan might possibly have achieved some sort of standoff peace treaty such as they desired? If they hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor, and the US Pacific Fleet tried the original Plan Orange. Imagine losing not just the Arizona and the Oklahoma, but the entire battleline? That could have happened, had the Long Lances hit them in deep water. From planes and destroyers as well in a night action perhaps. ...
Well before the war the Navy had decided that War plan Orange wasn't workable. As for the losses from the Long Lances (which by the way were not capable of being air launched) see:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-067.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-064.htm
Somewhere I also read an analysis that looked into US steaming formations and the likelyhood of the Japanese actually penetrating far enough to get to the US battleships and it didn't look good for the IJN.

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Re: How would you improve the IJN?

Post by Djoser » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:30 pm

lwd wrote:
Djoser wrote:... Now, the one most likely way I think Japan might possibly have achieved some sort of standoff peace treaty such as they desired? If they hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor, and the US Pacific Fleet tried the original Plan Orange. Imagine losing not just the Arizona and the Oklahoma, but the entire battleline? That could have happened, had the Long Lances hit them in deep water. From planes and destroyers as well in a night action perhaps. ...
Well before the war the Navy had decided that War plan Orange wasn't workable. As for the losses from the Long Lances (which by the way were not capable of being air launched) see:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-067.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-064.htm
Somewhere I also read an analysis that looked into US steaming formations and the likelyhood of the Japanese actually penetrating far enough to get to the US battleships and it didn't look good for the IJN.
I am currently reading a pretty decent book, War Plan Orange (Edward S. Miller, Naval Institute Press), which posits that the US did in fact use War Plan Orange with great success. But with carriers as the main striking force, of course. I am only halfway through it, so I have not reached the point where the USN gives up the plan as you say 'well before the war'; did the planners really give it up entirely?

You got me on the Long Lances. :clap: But those torpedoes at PH certainly did some lancing of battleship hulls!

Those links were fascinating, thanks for posting.

Remember, before we get into this new debate, that I am the one who said Japan's defeat was inevitable lol! I was trying to figure out some way that Japan might conceivably have achieved the sort of 'backing down' defeat of the USA they were aiming for, and this seemed the most likely (even if unlikely) way.

Also, I am not so sure the old slow battleline would have fared well at all against the IJN in early '42. And as the second linked article states "US losses at sea in the Mandates would have been unrecoverable. US losses at its Fleet Base were repaired and modernized and brought forward to battle on US terms. The Kido Butai would not have missed its chance at Halsey and the US carriers in the Mandates as it did at Pearl Harbor."

But again as it states, they could have sunk the entire fleet in early '42, and still have faced an overwhelming opponent by '45.

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Re: How would you improve the IJN?

Post by lwd » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:18 pm

Djoser wrote: I am currently reading a pretty decent book, War Plan Orange (Edward S. Miller, Naval Institute Press), which posits that the US did in fact use War Plan Orange with great success. But with carriers as the main striking force, of course. I am only halfway through it, so I have not reached the point where the USN gives up the plan as you say 'well before the war'; did the planners really give it up entirely?
War Plan Orange called for an immediate advance across the Pacfic I believe. The Navy became convinced that it would be at least 6 months and probably a year or more after the war started before they would be able to conduct sunch an offensive. The broad outline of War Plan Orange and the Rainbow Plans (in particular 5 I think) were indeed utilized once the offense was ready.
...
Also, I am not so sure the old slow battleline would have fared well at all against the IJN in early '42. And as the second linked article states "US losses at sea in the Mandates would have been unrecoverable. US losses at its Fleet Base were repaired and modernized and brought forward to battle on US terms.
They probably wouldn't have done as well as was hoped on the otherhand the Japanese couldn't afford much in the way of losses and USN damage control worked miracles at bringing damaged ships back to port.
The Kido Butai would not have missed its chance at Halsey and the US carriers in the Mandates as it did at Pearl Harbor."
Historically they got thier shot at Coral Sea and Midway and that didn't work out very well for them.
But again as it states, they could have sunk the entire fleet in early '42, and still have faced an overwhelming opponent by '45.
Actually by the end of 43 the USN overmatches the IJN pretty much no matter what. Take a look at: http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

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RF
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Re: How would you improve the IJN?

Post by RF » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:39 pm

Djoser wrote:How is that semantically incorrect?
Because it isn't the view held by everybody as you appear to be claiming. I for one do not concur.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: How would you improve the IJN?

Post by RF » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:22 pm

Djoser wrote:
Please post or PM links to your posts positing a Japanese victory, I would love to see them.
As I say I have posted several threads on this subject, but in looking back on the older pages these threads are older than I thought they were and difficult to find as they have been inactive for so long.

Three threads giving a general gist of winning Axis scenario's and alternative histories where Germany/Japan win are:

World War II - Alternative World War One scenario

Hypothetical Naval Scenario's - Japanese invasion of US mainland
- What if Hitler had started WW2 in 1943?

There are even older threads which follow basically the synopsis of Germany and Japan winning through close collaboration, application of a grand strategy, defeating Britain and then using Mexico, South Africa and Colombia as Axis allies and German development of the atomic bomb and the use of A10 rockets to land nuclear bombs on the US.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: How would you improve the IJN?

Post by Djoser » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:11 am

RF wrote:
Djoser wrote:How is that semantically incorrect?
Because it isn't the view held by everybody as you appear to be claiming. I for one do not concur.
Definition of semantics:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/di ... /semantics

1. Linguistics The study or science of meaning in language.
2. Linguistics The study of relationships between signs and symbols and what they represent. Also called semasiology.
3. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.

I think you chose the wrong word. But let's not quibble over semantics. :lol:

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RF
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Re: How would you improve the IJN?

Post by RF » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:22 pm

Indeed.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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