dunmunro wrote:Japan was waging a genocidal war in China, and Roosevelt imposed the embargo due to public outcry over Japanese atrocities. Japan could have made peace in China and would have still retained Manchuria. It is quite a stretch to suggest that the USA was guilty of anything in regards to the Japanese attack on the USA, NEI and the Commonwealth.
Byron Angel wrote:You seem to view these acts of the US as irrelevant; I view them as premeditated.
Bgile wrote:Byron Angel wrote:You seem to view these acts of the US as irrelevant; I view them as premeditated.
Do you think the US would have done those things if the Japanese hadn't invaded China?
Byron Angel wrote:
US government cuts off scrap steel sales to Japan. US cuts off oil exports to Japan. US freezes Japanese assets. Taken together, these spell economic ruin for Japan, whose options are then reduced to either: (a) subordinating their entire foreign policy and plans for Asian expansion to American permission and effectively making Japan a vassal state of the US; or (b) going to war in the hope of breaking free from US domination.
Byron Angel wrote:
Exactly what threat did Japanese incursions onto the Asian mainland pose to vital US interests sufficient to provoke the above-mentioned hostile acts on the part of the US government?
Seekanone wrote:What does most of the last ten threads have to do with how to improve the Nihon Kaigun?
Byron Angel wrote:My opinion strictly - based upon a certain amount of reading on the topics over the years:
The Spanish American War was the result of:
 a pretty shameless propaganda campaign on the part of the Hearst newspaper empire.
 US discomfort with any sort of European colonial presence in the Americas.
 The interest of US business in commercial opportunities offered by Cuba.
 Efforts on the part of the indigenous Cuban rebel movement to attract US support for their cause.
The loss of USS MAINE simply offered a convenient rationale and political justification to take the plunge.
US entry into WW1 was the result of:
 An intensive long term internal US public relations campaign on the part of the Entente to induce American entry into the war.
 Woodrow Wilson's preening Princeton ego.
 The very large domestic industrial and business opportunities offered by a massive expansion of US armed forces.
The Zimmerman telegram again offered a convenient political excuse to take the plunge. Mexico, at that point in time convulsed by internal civil war and revolution, was in absolutely no position to undertake anything remotely resembling a credible invasion effort against any neighbor, least of all its powerful neighbor to the North - and Wilson knew that.
Djoser wrote:... certainly made aggressive use of propaganda--much of which is still blithely accepted by the ignorant masses
No one who reads about the bombing of Dresden--that is, from sources other than those justifying the massacre of untold thousands of civilians (not involved in munitions manufacture) in firestorms as a military necessity--....
The biggest mistake the US made when reacting to Japan's Chinese aggression was to believe that the economic sanctions would actually work, instead of propelling the Japanese at greater speed towards starting a war, as actually transpired. The mindset of the Japanese leaders was completely misunderstood. In trying to avoid war, the US unwittingly brought it on a lot sooner than it might have come.
We also shouldn't forget that less than a hundred years before the Japanese atrocities in China, the USA was engaging in genocide (it's hard to call it anything else, whether it was premeditated or not).....
Seekanone wrote:What does most of the last ten threads have to do with how to improve the Nihon Kaigun? Little or nothing that is what. Political semantics aside, what could have been done to improve the Nihon Kaigun? Begin pre-war with the Fleet Replenishment program that included Yamato, Musashi and the two Zuikakus as well as many other ships by deleting the two Yamato class BBs and replacing them with four to five additional Zuikaku class CVs. Provide trained aircrews and technical crews for the carriers in way of personnel and this alone would give Japan a second carrier strike force with which to hit the Allies.
Build smaller, faster battleships, not the B65 class but something about 40,000 tons, speed 31 knots, 8-41cm, 20-10cm AA and sufficient protection against 14inch guns. Four at least would be sufficient to complement the Kongo class as screens for the carriers.
Emphasize convoy defense and ASW techiques in order to prepare for US subs and their war of attrition. Focus on electronic warfare improvements, especially radar in order to counter US techniques. These would not be easily done but instead of building two giant battleships, one huge carrier, have a fourth battleship 30 per cent complete, spend the resources on new carriers, smaller battleship escorts, more aircraft, crews and service personnel. This would not have spelled victory for Japan but it would have made the war much more difficult to win.
lwd wrote:This is wandering pretty far off topic.
It was hardly "untold thousands" and it was indeed a valid military target. This should be continued in an appropriate thread however and not here.
Djoser wrote:Getting back to the topic...
We all know nothing could have prevented Japan's defeat.
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