Marines in the Pacific vs Waffen SS

[SxS]

Good points Byron Angel, and very true.

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"But there were limits as to how far that disobediance could go, particulary for officers who retreated against orders on the Russian front."

A) I am not talking about troops on the Ostfront, but rather in a hypothetical scenario on a small Pacific island which High Command would never allow to happen (why place an armoured division on a tiny island?) Plus, Ostfront troops rarely wanted to disobey a combat order against the Soviets. (especially SS men; half of them joined the SS just to "defend Europa from Bolshevism.") Their goal was to destroy with Europe and the Fatherland in the back of their minds, and very few German units, and barely any SS units missed a chance to strike, nevermind to disobey an order they would see as a glorious honour (atleast for the SS troops, the bulk of Wehrmacht soldiers viewed battle less patriotically than SS men, and noted the fury and devestation of combat rather than the glory it gave them from their nation and its effect on Europa.)

B) My whole debate was never for an island engagement, but for a land engagement (once again, why place an armoured division on a tiny island, it wouldn't even make sense when the Reich has better suited units for said engagement such as the Fallschirmjager for combat roles and the Fallschirmpioneer for most other roles such as booby-trapping and setting up defences, Flak guns, bunkers, minefields, beach defences, etc.

Another point is that the Waffen SS officers had a very low opinion of the fighting qualities of American troops, which was borne without any combat experience against the Marine Corps...."

A) There was a reason that German soldiers, and very truly some SS soldiers called US troops "Devil Dogs" or British Para "Red Devils". They VERY well knew their combat effectiveness, the tech backing them up, immense ammounts of ammunition, and an untouchable communications and command system, second to non in the world. They also very well knew the firepower an American unit could throw on the table (with their standard issue semi-automatic rifles) as well as how effective their support command structure was. Yes, it is true that many officers, not just the SS (and including), had a low opinion of American fighting qualities, but it WAS for a reason. American soldiers' effectiveness was based on Asymmetric warfare, support structures, munitions, technology, productive capability, reserves, extreme communications capacities, resources available, and tight control from the US command. When comparing lets say, soldaten from the 1st SS Division "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" to troops from the U.S. 7th Armored Division which first saw combat in August of 1944 (most American divisions saw action in mid-late 1944 and early 1945,) there is a very large gap of quality between the two groups. The Leibstandarte was involved in possibly the most ferocious combat from Poland, to France, to the Balkans/ Low Country, heavy participation in Operation Barbarossa, Kharkov, Kursk, Italy, the most brutal battlefields of the whole war (or possibly any war in history) : the Eastern front, Normandy and all over the Western front, Op Goodwood, Luttich, the Ardennes offensive, Wacht am Rhein, back to the Eastern Front, and the defence of Berlin (not until the very end though, and as an ad-hoc unit "Kampfgruppe Mohnke"). The US 7th Armored Divisions combat experience from the second world war : very minimal actions in France starting on Aug 15th, the unit withdrew from Dornot, was used for support during Operation Market Garden, and the final military action was a minimal role of the Battle of the Bulge. To make a long story short, the Americans are greener than freshly cut grass even at the end of the war in comparison to the battle-hardened SS men. Back to my point, the officer's had a very good reason to think very poorly of American fighting qualities, andim sure many SS soldiers shared the opinion, but the majority of the combat soldiers knew that even with the level of green the Americans are at, they are still deadly. I highly doubt that the combat effectiveness or the strategical/tactical effectiveness of both the soldiers and the officers can be judged solely on opinion of fighting qualitiy. With all the experience the German soldiers had, I think by the time the Americans showed up they well understood that any man with a gun is lethal (the Soviet soldiers were known throughout the German Army as very tough, knowleadgable, quick, and some of the best, yet in fact they had extremely low food rations, poor living conditions and expectations, very brief, poor, and generalized training; they were essentially peasants with guns in contrast to proffessional, full time soldiers.) Keeping this is mind, if the SS were fighting the Marines, they would use the same ferocity, tactics/strategies, aggressiveness, and battle efficiency than against the Soviets, or the French, or the Polish, or British, or other American units before them. Also note : Yes the officers and most likely many troops judged the Americans for poor fighting qualities, but QUALITY is much different than effectiveness. The Germans would well understand that even with poor qualities, the US forces are still effective (still effective is a big understatement), and therefore the Germans' combat effectiveness will not decrease because the they would not be sucked into the psycological effect of fighting an enemy who is stronger than what you think they are. Another note : the French were known to have the best soldiers in the world before the Blitz. The SS men adapted between different enemies and their respected styles of combat (Polish, French, Balkan Forces/Greeks, Soviets, British, American.) Im sure if they can adapt to they're combat styles they can adapt to the Marines'.

There is a reason you can see NATO forces as well as Marines pose with SS flags or put SS decals on their helmets.

[SxS]

Also, the disobediance can go as far as the commanding officer sees fit, as long as his commanding officer agrees and keeps the actions either in secret, or with the support of Heinrich Himmler. There were many documented events of SS officers banding together in secrecy to save the lives of their troops from strategically grotesque decisions called by the Fuhrer.

[SxS]

One final note : For the SS to be stationed in the Pacific, the war would have to have been in Germany's favor. The SS could not pointlessly station such an elite formation in the Pacific when every SS division was needed in Europe to both defend and attack the Soviets and the Western Powers. This being said, if the war is going in Germany's favor, the technology of the Reich must also be flourishing. It is a well known fact that German scientists were on the verge of countless breakthroughs, and given slightly more resources and time, the breakthrough would have been complete (the time and resources would be available if the war was going in Germany's favor). In this hypothetical scenario, we must also consider that these breakthroughs have already happened, and because the war would not be going in the favor of the allies, we must also come to the conclusion that allied technological advancements were stalled because most of the focus was on production as opposed to design/experimentation due to the war not being on their side and the need for more military equippment, weapons, vehicles, munitions, etc. This being said, we must now also come to the conclusion that the US' tech was not as advanced as it was in reality if we thinking of this scenario hypothetically. Therefore, the US would be undergunned, behind the German's even moreso in terms of technology and arms development, and would most likely be facing superior numbers because Germany isnt as pressed for manpower (and is also drawing from a flourishing German society.)

[SxS]

also, choosing to not fight on an island with an armored division isnt "retreating" it is strategical common sense and the correction of an unintelligent tactical order which would have many German lives pointless thrown away.

[SxS]

Another very important note : Many German officers, as well as soldiers AND civilians, had very low opinions of American fighting qualities because American(/British) carpet-bombings, which virtually rattled Germany to her core, and literally destroyed almost everything. Cities were flattened, factories holding valuables as well as resources sporadically exploding at any given time, whole battalions swiftly dissappeared under the Allied bombers. They had such a low opinion on American fighting qualities because they felt like the war they were fighting was un-just, with no honour or respect for Germany, her soldiers, or any European people (the carpet bombings were used all over Nazi occupied Europe to shake the Axis defences) and they had little respect for the US forces as a whole (yet ironically they preferred to surrender to the Americans due to better living conditions and treatment rather than the Soviets).