Graf Spee, Scheer, and Lützow vs Yamato

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
Monitor
Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:46 am
Location: US

Graf Spee, Scheer, and Lützow vs Yamato

Post by Monitor » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:32 am

The three German pocket battleships versus the Japanese Yamato. Any chance for the Germans? This is a three against one but the number of German guns (18 x 11") is the same as if it were Scharnhorst & Gneisenau versus Yamato. Do you guys see any similarities with the battle of the River Plate; Yamato playing the role of Spee against three smaller opponents?

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Post by marcelo_malara » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:13 pm

I think that the difference between the River Plate battle and the hypothetical engagement is too big.

According to Campbell (Naval Weapons of World War Two):

River Plate:

Germans: 6 11" Projectile 300 Kgs Broadside 1800 Kgs
Speed 26 kts
British: 16 6" Projectile 50.8 kgs
6 8" Projectile 116.1 kgs Broadside (all ships) 1509.4 kgs
Speed 30+ kts

Hypothetical:

Yamato 9 18" Projectile 1460 Kgs Broadside 13140 kgs
Speed 27 kts
Germans 18 11" Projectile 300 Kgs Broadside 5400 Kgs
Speed 26 kts

Aside from the overwhelming difference in broadside weight, I think the Germans guns hasn´t the slightest chance of penetreting Yamato´s armour.

Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Post by Bgile » Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:46 am

There would be luck involved, but you have to understand the D's weren't any larger than heavy cruisers. One hit from Yamato in the hull could easily cripple one of them.

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Post by marcelo_malara » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:47 pm

More than luck involved, I think that there must be a miracle involved.
A direct impact from a 18" gun with HE (not AP) projectile would sure take the receiving ship out of action.

Sergio
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:35 pm
Location: España

Post by Sergio » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:44 pm

Hello, let's see. Yamato's shells are almost 5 times larger than the German shells. Yamato's armor is impenetrable to 11" shells. Speed is about the same in both sides 27 vs 28 knots. But, Yamato has to face three oponents with a much higher rate of fire and mobility. If Yamato doesn't split her fire then two Panzersshiffs can freely fire at her putting rangefinders and other soft targets out of action. Germans could play the cat and mouse game with 1 Panzerschiff as a distraction target for Yamato and the other two to attack from the other side. Yamato should take at least 3 salvos to get a straddle and as soon as this happens the first Panzerschiff reverse course and runs away only to come back later in a couple of minutes and so on.

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Post by marcelo_malara » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:52 pm

Sergio, I think that what you are proposing looks good on paper, but it is very difficult to take to reality.
First off all, the speed advantage is on Yamato´s side, what makes it very difficult for the Germans to come on their prey from exactly three different bearings.
Second, suppose that they could engage Yamato like proposed. Yamato would split her fire on two ships, 4+ guns on each. The third ship would still have to face Yamato´s powerfull secondary battery of 12 6.1" guns!!

User avatar
miro777
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by miro777 » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:59 pm

hey

i think it would be possible for the three germans to beat the japanese.
although as mentioned before a lot of luck is needed...
i rather agree with sergio, where one ship could be a distractor, while the two other would just put their broadsides into her.
if we take out the possibilty of a 'Hood' incident with a direct hit in the ammunition, i think it depends a lot on the ability of the captains and the crews. (a critical factor in Nelson's win at Trafalgar)
if u would anniluate that as well,
i think u should add to the main armament the torpedo weapons of the Panzerschiffe.
Although, even if they are launched, the torpedos would not do much, it's still a factor.
there are also possibilities of a drirect hit of one of the germans in one of the turrents of the Yamato.
if put the fact that it's three against one into the calculations, the torpedos and the (hopefully) better crews, i would think that the three germans had a rather good chance to beat the Yamato, although the Yamato has such a greater fire power.

Monitor wat do u think urself about this szenario?

miro

Coyote850
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:55 am
Location: Ohio

Post by Coyote850 » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:55 am

German would get slaughtered. They would never get within range of their 11inch guns. Yamato could run, stay out of their range and pummel the Germans from a distance.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7531
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:40 am

This is an interesting scenario.

Using ''Panzerschiffe'' as hit and run almost destroyer tactics is not what they were designed for, but has an outside chance of working if there were four of these pocket battleships working closely together as at least one of them won't be engaged by the super sledgehammers. Provided that none of them are disabled the Germans could do it - but as soon as those 18.1 inch shells find their target the Germans chances are over.

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Post by marcelo_malara » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:28 pm

Remember the 6" secondary armament. The unengaged one wouldn´t close undamage either.

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:04 pm

Just one word:

YAMATO
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Post by marcelo_malara » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:21 pm

Better yet, how could four ships manage to come from four different bearings if they hadn´t speed advantage? Yamato would only concentrate her fire on those located ahead, which wouldn´t be able to close, and the 1 kt speed advantage over the Germans would gather the four of them on her wake.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7531
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:45 am

marcelo_malara wrote:Better yet, how could four ships manage to come from four different bearings if they hadn´t speed advantage? Yamato would only concentrate her fire on those located ahead, which wouldn´t be able to close, and the 1 kt speed advantage over the Germans would gather the four of them on her wake.
I said the strategy might work - the Yamato would have to be slowed down, and even then close co-ordination between the four Panzerschiffe would be needed.

The Yamato 6.1 inch guns are certainly a factor, better than the German 5.9 inch. The German Fleet Commander would have to stay out of secondary armament range.

User avatar
Gary
Senior Member
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:37 pm
Location: Northumberland

Post by Gary » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:04 pm

Yamato
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst

User avatar
Nellie
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 11:18 am
Location: Stockholm Sweden

Post by Nellie » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:29 pm

Yamato takes them one by one!

Post Reply