Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
srgt rock
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by srgt rock » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:59 pm

"By the end of the war, the USN was conducting night attacks."

So, the USN, the world's largest navy (by wars end) with the largest FAA, took ~4 years to catch up to the RN FAA, and then only with technical and tactical assistance from the RN. Expecting the KM's FAA to master all this in time for their first ever carrier, is stretching things...
I believe you are thinking on too narrow a thought path. Luftwaffe forces were conducting NIGHT ATTACKS IN 1940. Secondly, GZ does not NEED to conduct night attacks. Breakout pass through the Iceland-Faroes Gap would be during daylight hours. I do admit the number of hours of daylight would be limited but the German admiral would calculate breakout timing to use his forces at their best. Also, predawn launches and after dark landings would be night operations. The Germans had developed glide slope assistance light system to aid night landings.

Both the USN and IJN conducted predawn launches and after dark landings.

Pandora
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:41 am

dunmunro wrote:ASV II was used on Swordfish from both Victorious, Ark Royal and by the Catalina (PBY) that found Bismarck after she was lost by Wake-Walker's force.
hello
thinking about this again only a few Swrodfish had ASV not all, and also I dont think the Catalina had ASV because it sighted bismarck visual contact not radar.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:17 pm

Pandora wrote:
dunmunro wrote:ASV II was used on Swordfish from both Victorious, Ark Royal and by the Catalina (PBY) that found Bismarck after she was lost by Wake-Walker's force.
hello
thinking about this again only a few Swrodfish had ASV not all, and also I dont think the Catalina had ASV because it sighted bismarck visual contact not radar.
There were sufficient numbers of ASV equipped Swordfish to act as guides for the others during night attacks.

The Catalina would have to make a visual confirmation of a radar contact.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by srgt rock » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:26 pm

As we discuss the possible skill level of the GZ pilots, I have begun to look at what historically happened to the aircraft and pilots that would have been posted on GZ.

It is common knowledge the fighter squadrons were used to form JG 77.

The Ju87s were incorporated into StG1 and used in the attacks against the Soviet fleet in Sep 41.

I discovered was some of the fighters and some of the bombers were used to create the Experimental Proving Group 210. (EpG 210)

GZ would have had very skilled and innovative air groups

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by srgt rock » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:05 pm

Paul L wrote:The Fi 167 is more than capable of intercepting torpedo Albacores , since they can only do 150-160mph, while the STOL aircraft is capable of 203 mph. All it has to do is to break up the attacks. Further more good well trained pilots could fly Me-109T if they had to, it’s just silly and bad military analysis to assume they could not. I find it naive and insulting to suggest that the Germans were not capable of improvising and adapting workable solutions to obstacles they encounter. It's also ignoring historical records.
I just read a history of the Fi 167 in which itclaimed that in 1944 a Fi 167 flying for the Croatian air force shot down a P 51 before being shot down itself.

The fi 167 could have been used as an interceptor but it would have been best used as an recon aircraft

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:55 am

dunmunro wrote:There were sufficient numbers of ASV equipped Swordfish to act as guides for the others during night attacks.
yes, I agree but not certain they can find their target anyway much less get any hits at night.
just that the way you said it sounded like all Swordfish had ASV. I think only Esmonde had ASV in Victorious.
dunmunro wrote:The Catalina would have to make a visual confirmation of a radar contact.
Im not very sure of that. I really doubt very much that Catalina found the Bismarck had ASV, because the visual sighting was the first contact they had.
catalina was just very very lucky to find Bismarck in my opinion.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:21 pm

Pandora wrote:
dunmunro wrote:There were sufficient numbers of ASV equipped Swordfish to act as guides for the others during night attacks.
yes, I agree but not certain they can find their target anyway much less get any hits at night.
just that the way you said it sounded like all Swordfish had ASV. I think only Esmonde had ASV in Victorious.
dunmunro wrote:The Catalina would have to make a visual confirmation of a radar contact.
Im not very sure of that. I really doubt very much that Catalina found the Bismarck had ASV, because the visual sighting was the first contact they had.
catalina was just very very lucky to find Bismarck in my opinion.
3 of the 9 Swordfish on Victorious had ASV, and this was in May 1941.

ASV was widespread amongst Coastal Command aircraft:
Side by side comparison tests conducted in July 1941 between the British and the American radar sets [The US version of ASVII - dm] revealed big differences. Both sets gave comparable results, although the edge went to the British. Tests of individual components uncovered important differences. The Americans radar was better engineered and used pulser tubes, enabling the transmitter to put out significantly more power than its rival. The British advantage was that their receiver picked up signals several times fainter than the Americans. The British used silicon crystal detector that was superior to the Americans grounded grid triode.
By June 1941 more than half of all Coastal Command aircraft had been equipped with ASV radar.

The Development of Early airborne Radar.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:54 pm

dunmunro wrote:3 of the 9 Swordfish on Victorious had ASV, and this was in May 1941.
do you know if any of those 3 ASV Swordfish were any of the aircraft lost?
dunmunro wrote: ASV was widespread amongst Coastal Command aircraft:
Side by side comparison tests conducted in July 1941 between the British and the American radar sets [The US version of ASVII - dm] revealed big differences. Both sets gave comparable results, although the edge went to the British. Tests of individual components uncovered important differences. The Americans radar was better engineered and used pulser tubes, enabling the transmitter to put out significantly more power than its rival. The British advantage was that their receiver picked up signals several times fainter than the Americans. The British used silicon crystal detector that was superior to the Americans grounded grid triode.
By June 1941 more than half of all Coastal Command aircraft had been equipped with ASV radar.

The Development of Early airborne Radar.
well then the Catalina that found Bismarck must have been part of the other half CC aircraft that wasnt equipped with ASV.
The plane carried four depth charges (500 lbs. each) and capacity gas load (1750 U.S. gallons). Aircraft at Lough Erne are always armed with depth charges and the British felt it a waste of time and effort to remove them before this flight. There is no special (ASV) equipment aboard.
... and I suspect that the other Catalinas that searched for Bismarck (maybe Sunderlands too?) didnt have ASV either.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:58 pm

Pandora wrote:
The plane carried four depth charges (500 lbs. each) and capacity gas load (1750 U.S. gallons). Aircraft at Lough Erne are always armed with depth charges and the British felt it a waste of time and effort to remove them before this flight. There is no special (ASV) equipment aboard.


Source?

Pandora
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:24 pm

dunmunro wrote:
Pandora wrote:
The plane carried four depth charges (500 lbs. each) and capacity gas load (1750 U.S. gallons). Aircraft at Lough Erne are always armed with depth charges and the British felt it a waste of time and effort to remove them before this flight. There is no special (ASV) equipment aboard.


Source?
catalina crew report

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:35 pm

srgt rock wrote:I just read a history of the Fi 167 in which itclaimed that in 1944 a Fi 167 flying for the Croatian air force shot down a P 51 before being shot down itself.

The fi 167 could have been used as an interceptor but it would have been best used as an recon aircraft
a Fi 167 shoting down a P 51 is as odd as an Albacore shooting down a Messerstmitt.
if it really happened it would be the exception that confirms the rule.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:51 pm

Pandora wrote: catalina crew report
For which aircraft, and when?

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:07 pm

dunmunro wrote:
Pandora wrote: catalina crew report
For which aircraft, and when?
it is the report of the pilot of catalina that found the Bismarck.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:37 am

Pandora wrote:
dunmunro wrote:
Pandora wrote: catalina crew report
For which aircraft, and when?
it is the report of the pilot of catalina that found the Bismarck.
OK, I found that report, and it does state that there was no ASV onboard, however the weather conditions are also given, and they show the extreme conditions that were typical of the Atlantic:
Report of Ensign L.B. Smith,26 USN, 26 May 1941
Report of Scouting and Search of PBY-5 No. AH545 "CATALINA" for
BISMARCK 26 May, 1941.
1. Following 0325 take-off from Lough Erne, it was necessary to climb to 3000'
through overcast before proceeding to West Coast of Ireland. We took departure at
0430 from Eagle Island, altitude 500' on westerly course. Weather conditions were
undesirable, ceiling varying from 100' to 1000' and visibility ranging from 5 miles to
zero. Wind 30-35 from N. W. which reduced ground speed to approximately 80 knots.
2. The plane carried four depth charges (500 lbs. each) and capacity gas load (1750
U.S. gallons) Aircraft at Lough Erne are always armed with depth charges and the
British felt it a waste of time and effort to remove them before this flight. There was no
special (ASV)equipment aboard...
...4. Weather at search area was somewhat better than that encountered on trip out.
Horizontal visibility below 800' was good—up to 8-10 miles. Misty conditions
prevailed between 800' and 2000' where cloud lane covered 5/6 of sky. Visibility
between 800-2000 was about 4 miles and at 2000 about 1-2 miles.


Wellings, On His Majesty’s Service p209-210
IIRC, these aircraft were aided in their assignment of search coordinates by the use of ULTRA decryptions.

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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:01 am

yes, that is the report.
no ASV onboard Catalina and as I said I suspect no ASV in other recon planes too.

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