Duke of York & Renown at Noth Cape

[paul.mercer]

You have a two on one as far as battleships go. The Tirpitze and Duke of York are relativly evenly matched (I'd give a slight edge to Tirpitz) throw in Scharnhorst and the British have to hope for a lucky torpedo or shell hit to have a chance. In any case either of these are a big step away from the original and probalby should have their own thread.

Gentlemen,
I have taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the above from the other thread 'Tirpitz & Scharnhorst at North Cape'
If we take the British task force to include DoY and Renown + all their cruisers and destroyers against the two German ships + their destroyer escort how would that pan out?

[alecsandros]

Most likely it wouldn't change anything in real terms - teh German ships would try to escape, and most likely would succeed, as Scharnhorst's radar would be used in conjunction with Tirpitz's. Thus, the approach of DoY would be discovered from long range and the 2 German raiders would change course.

If, for whatever reason, a battle would be forced , the advantage would be with the British forces...
It would be interesting to know what would have been the most probable reaction of the German TF commander if one of his ships would have had a severe reduction in speed... For example, if Schar would have engine troubles (either from combat or not) and speed down to 20kts... Would Tirpitz remain near her to help ... ? Or would Schar have been left behind to hold off the British as much as possible to allow Tirpitz to get to safer waters... ?

[paul.mercer]

Supposing Tirpitz did leave Scharnhorst and DoY went after her, would Renown (and pehaps one of the cruisers if they were not escorting Doy) be able to deal with Scharnhorst on her own?

[alecsandros]

Supposing Tirpitz did leave Scharnhorst and DoY went after her, would Renown (and pehaps one of the cruisers if they were not escorting Doy) be able to deal with Scharnhorst on her own?

On paper, it's hard to imagine Renown disabling or destroying Scharnhorst.

But there are some puzzles for me concerning the actions during Battle of North Cape, which may point that, in reality, Renown on it's own was more than a match for Schar.
The problems I am thinking about concern Scharnhorst's gunnery during the battle.
From various sources, we've read that:

1) Schar scored 2 hits on CA Norfolk
During the engagement with Norfolk, Schar had all of it's guns operational (9x280mm + 12x150mm). There are no casualties reported for those 2 hits on Norfolk, and the damage was only moderate.
4 years earlier, Graf Spee crippled CA Exeter with the first 2 x 283mm shell strikes. The effects on the heavy cruiser were devastating.

If the hits were indeed 280mm, it puzzles me as to why did Scharnhorst used AP shells against such a target. HE or SAP ammunition would have been far more effective.

2) Schar scored 1 hit and 1-2 near misses on DD Saumarez.
By this time, the German battlecruiser probably had operational 1 or maximum 2 main turrets and 2-4 secondary turrets operational.

It is not clear what caliber the hits were, but again, the lack of heavy casualties and damage on the destroyer may indicate 150mm shell hits. The one exception may be the shell which "passed through the control tower without exploding and killed 3 men".

3) Schar straddled Norfolk and Duke of York many times, without further direct hits.

In the action against DoY, Schar had 3x280mm guns available for over 1 hour (turret C) and 3x280mm guns available for about 30 minutes (turret B).
Many straddles.. No hits...... Withch make me think about the ship's stability and accuracy as a gunnery platform in heavy seas...
=====

So, taking this into consideration, i would guess Schar would missidentify Renown as a 35000 ton battleship and try to escape (somehow). It would only fire with the rear (C) turret, while Renown would fire with the fw (2 x 2 x 381mm) guns... It's hard to say what would happen... But Schar was unlucky and had stability problems...

[delcyros]

How do You indicate that

But Schar was unlucky and had stability problems.

I don´t see any stability problems involved. Correct me, if I´m wrong but what exactly makes You thinking that RENOWN with a lower metacentric stability (=less stability in poor seas) is any better than SCHARNHORST in this regard? Or DoY for that matter. SCHARNHORSTs firing at long ranges with radar controll (radar directed blindfire) with only C turret on DoY was outstanding, she repeatedly straddled DoY. it´s not to difficult to imagine that 2 or three shell salvo´s miss a target even when straddling...

[alecsandros]

Hi Delycros,

Scharnhorst faired somewhat poorly also in 1940 in the engagement with Renown, also on heavy seas. Renown on the other hand, despite its age and theoretical stability characteristics, landed 2x381mm shells on Gneisenau, causing some damage.

(At 0620, firing began again, with Renown once again targeting Gneisenau. Scharnhorst's radar malfunctioned, so her fire was completely ineffective, but within 5 minutes Gneisenau had scored two hits on Renown. One 11.1-inch shell passed through the main leg of Renown's foremast without exploding, while the second struck aft of 'Y' turret. This shell hit the starboard side hull plating between the upper and main decks, and passed through the ship above the steering gear and out the other side, also without exploding.

Renown answered almost immediately with two hits of her own. One of her 15-inch shells passed clean through Gneisenau's director tower without exploding, severing electrical and communication cables as it went. The debris caused by the passing shell killed one officer and five ratings, and destroyed the optical rangefinder for the forward 150mm turrets. Main battery fire control had to be shifted aft due to the loss of electrical power to the director tower. Renown's second shell struck Gneisenau's aft turret, knocking it out of action. )

At North Cape, Scharnhorst had 3 guns operational for over 60 minutes, and 3 more for 30 minutes or so. "Repeated straddling with no hits" is evidence of excessive salvo dispersion and/ore very bad luck. One of the possible (and most likely) causes of the dispersion was the ship's instability on heavy seas, which was pretty much demonstrated several times before.
Again from 1940:
As the German ships raced north, they began to outpace the British battlecruiser. But the heavy seas took their toll: green water over the bows damaged both German ships. Water entered the forward turrets of both ships, rendering them useless due to short circuits. Scharnhorst suffered a powerplant problem, and the starboard shaft had to be shut down. The two dropped down to 25 knots, but by then they were out of radar range and Renown was unable to locate them.

We know DoY fired 446 x 356mm shells throughout the battle, and at least 10-13 hit Scharnhorst. How many 280mm shells did Schar fire... ? I would speculate that at least 200, given the very long (3 hours) engagement, and multitude of targets (Norfolk, Sheffield, DoY, Saumarez)... And how many direct hits ? 2 ? Maybe 3 ...? With the wrong ammo... ?

[delcyros]

Off Norway, RENOWN didn´t hit GNEISENAU or SCHARNHORST twice. It hit with one 15in and this hit would have been a clear "over" had it not passed the topstructure with the RF director. The 2nd shell hit was a 4in disabling the turret RF and opening it to seawateringress, it´s not a 15in hit.

That makes two for SCHARNHORST and one for RENOWN, given the fact that SCHARNHORST replied with 2 and 3 gun salvos while RENOWN fired 4 gun salvo´s I wouldn´t conclude that RENOWN is better than SCHARNHORST in poor weather, strictly statistically spoken.

We know DoY fired 446 x 356mm shells throughout the battle, and at least 10-13 hit Scharnhorst. How many 280mm shells did Schar fire... ? I would speculate that at least 200, given the very long (3 hours) engagement, and multitude of targets (Norfolk, Sheffield, DoY, Saumarez)... And how many direct hits ? 2 ? Maybe 3 ...? With the wrong ammo... ?

I honestly disagree. Most of the hits came from short range when SCHARNHORST was already silenced.

[alecsandros]

Off Norway, RENOWN didn´t hit GNEISENAU or SCHARNHORST twice. It hit with one 15in and this hit would have been a clear "over" had it not passed the topstructure with the RF director. The 2nd shell hit was a 4in disabling the turret RF and opening it to seawateringress, it´s not a 15in hit.

That makes two for SCHARNHORST and one for RENOWN, given the fact that SCHARNHORST replied with 2 and 3 gun salvos while RENOWN fired 4 gun salvo´s I wouldn´t conclude that RENOWN is better than SCHARNHORST in poor weather, strictly statistically spoken.

But Scharnhorst did not hit Renown at all. It was Gneisenau...

18 x 280mm guns + 24x150mm guns
vs
6x381mm guns and 6x102mm guns...

Scharnhorst 0 hits; Gneisenau 2 hits (minimal damage); Renown 2 hits which inflicted considerable damage.
Exactly how don't you see this as statisticaly relevant ? A ship with 12 guns hits twice a ship with 23 guns, aided by another, identical ship.

Moreover, the battle was fought at 10-12 km range. That's a range for the First World War... How come 3 x 3 x 280mm gun turrets (from Schar) missed Renown entirely, at such a small range, is difficult for me to understand. Yes, I know Schar's fire was not helped by its radar, but still... It's guns had high m-v, and a large hitting space...

We know DoY fired 446 x 356mm shells throughout the battle, and at least 10-13 hit Scharnhorst. How many 280mm shells did Schar fire... ? I would speculate that at least 200, given the very long (3 hours) engagement, and multitude of targets (Norfolk, Sheffield, DoY, Saumarez)... And how many direct hits ? 2 ? Maybe 3 ...? With the wrong ammo... ?

I honestly disagree. Most of the hits came from short range when SCHARNHORST was already silenced.

16:55 - one of Duke of York's 14 in (35.6 cm) shells struck Scharnhorst abreast of her forward gun turret
Shortly thereafter, another 14 in shell struck the ventilation trunk attached to Bruno, which caused the turret to be flooded with noxious propellant gases every time the breeches were opened
A third shell hit the deck next to turret Caesar and caused some flooding; shell splinters caused significant casualties. At 17:30, shells struck the forward 15 cm gun turrets and destroyed them both.
At around 18:00, another 14 in shell struck the ship on the starboard side, passed through the thin upper belt armor, and exploded in the number 1 boiler room. It caused significant damage to the ship's propulsion system and slowed the ship to 8 kn (15 km/h; 9.2 mph), though temporary repairs allowed Scharnhorst to return to 22 kn (41 km/h; 25 mph)

So, at least 6 x 356mm hits were obtained while Scharnhorst was doing well...

At 18:42, Duke of York ceased fire, after having fired 52 salvos and scoring at least 13 hits, but Scharnhorst was pulling away. Many of these hits had decimated the ship's secondary armament, which left her open to destroyer attacks, which Fraser ordered
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_bat ... North_Cape

[Dave Saxton]

Remember in the April 1940 exchange of salvoes, Scharnhorst's 1st generation radar broke down (but not Gneisenau's). This has more to do with SH shooting in foul weather than a stable gun platform there. Gneisenau's shooting was good up until it lost power to its radar.

At North Cape against DoY, SH is only firing at most three shot salvoes at long intervals to begin with, and then firing at most six shot salvoes at longer intervals by turning broadside, firing a salvo, and then returning to course. One wouldn't expect Scharnhorst to score many direct hits in those circumstances- except by luck- regardless of the sea conditions. When Scharnhorst first replied, it fired at Duke of York. The first salvo was just short but on line. Usually the first salvo isn't expected to range exactly correct, because of cold guns. The next salvo straddled the forecastle. Then Scharnhorst switched targets and fired a few salvoes at different cruiser targets to the north before returning to firing at DOY sometime later. There was no consistent and rapid salvo firing at DoY even then. Scharnhorst only fired a fraction of its rounds consistently in a string of salvoes at Duke of York, while DoY fired many more multi gun salvoes in a string of salvoes at Scharnhorst. However, there is no indication that Scharnhorst's straddles had much scatter from the British accounts. Fraser attributed the Duke of York escaping with little damge to luck and praised the Scharnhorst's overall shooting.


If we look at Duke of York's shooting it wasn't much better as a percentage of straddles. Lots of straddles but few hits. Only about 4 or 5 direct hits can be accounted for in the 90 minutes up until Duke of York was first forced to cease firing, and Scharnhorst is on the cusp of escaping. Wiki is wrong here. Imagine that. Delcros is correct, most of the British shell hits occured in the last combat phase at point blank range. For both Germans and British, they were shooting at targets that were mostly end on to their line of fire throughout most of the running fight.

[Dave Saxton]

At around 18:00, another 14 in shell struck the ship on the starboard side, passed through the thin upper belt armor, and exploded in the number 1 boiler room.

It's rather questionable that this happened this way at all. Based on my study it never did.

[alecsandros]

Ah Dave,
I was looking forward for you showing up
I know about the theory of Scharnhorst's boilers being damaged by overload, and not a direct hit (which would have had a very curious trajectory to get there). But that would only add to the problems Scharnhorst would experience in heavy seas - not only was it unstable on the big waves as a gun platform, very wet, but also with possible boiler failures...

Also
Do you have an estimate of the total 280mm shells fired by Scharnhorst ?

And
Why do you think the high-velocity 280mm guns of Schar failed to score hits at 10km against Renown ?

Cheers,
Alex

[Dave Saxton]

And
Why do you think the high-velocity 280mm guns of Schar failed to score hits at 10km against Renown ?

Because it could not use radar ranging and spotting after the first salvoes and it could hardly see the Renown optically in the prevailing weather and light conditions. The same handicap did not apply to Renown because the lighting conditions highlighted the Gneisenau for the Renown's optics.

I don't know exactly how many shots SH fired and I have never tryed to estimate an Approx. number.

The failed steam tubing reported by the boiler room crew members likely was the result of hours of extreme pressure running regardless of heavy seas.

[19kilo]

The germans seemed to have many problems with their high pressure steam plants.......

[paul.mercer]

Supposing Tirpitz did leave Scharnhorst and DoY went after her, would Renown (and pehaps one of the cruisers if they were not escorting Doy) be able to deal with Scharnhorst on her own?

On paper, it's hard to imagine Renown disabling or destroying Scharnhorst.

But there are some puzzles for me concerning the actions during Battle of North Cape, which may point that, in reality, Renown on it's own was more than a match for Schar.
The problems I am thinking about concern Scharnhorst's gunnery during the battle.
From various sources, we've read that:

1) Schar scored 2 hits on CA Norfolk
During the engagement with Norfolk, Schar had all of it's guns operational (9x280mm + 12x150mm). There are no casualties reported for those 2 hits on Norfolk, and the damage was only moderate.
4 years earlier, Graf Spee crippled CA Exeter with the first 2 x 283mm shell strikes. The effects on the heavy cruiser were devastating.
Gentlemen,
Many thanks for your replies, You say that 'On paper it is hard to imagine Renown disabling or destroying Scharhorst', presumably you mean on her own' I realise that Renown was a fairly lightly armoured battlecruiser albeit heavily armed,
wereas Scharnhost was (in the British view) a Battleship, however in their last encounter off Norway Renown had a large part of her torpedo bulge breaking away and slowing her down so it would have been unlikely that Scharnhorst would have been able to get away from Renown at North Cape and in a stern chase Renown would be able to field 6 x15" against 3 x 11". Personally, (and I am happy to bow to the knowledge of the experts in this forum) I think Renown (if she was in the same fighting condition with a similar fully worked up crew as in the Norwegian campaign) would have crippled Scharnhorst with her heavy shells and a cruiser or destroyers would have finished her off with torpedoes.


If the hits were indeed 280mm, it puzzles me as to why did Scharnhorst used AP shells against such a target. or SAP ammunition would have been far more effective.

2) Schar scored 1 hit and 1-2 near misses on DD Saumarez.
By this time, the German battlecruiser probably had operational 1 or maximum 2 main turrets and 2-4 secondary turrets operational.

It is not clear what caliber the hits were, but again, the lack of heavy casualties and damage on the destroyer may indicate 150mm shell hits. The one exception may be the shell which "passed through the control tower without exploding and killed 3 men".

3) Schar straddled Norfolk and Duke of York many times, without further direct hits.

In the action against DoY, Schar had 3x280mm guns available for over 1 hour (turret C) and 3x280mm guns available for about 30 minutes (turret B).
Many straddles.. No hits...... Withch make me think about the ship's stability and accuracy as a gunnery platform in heavy seas...
=====

So, taking this into consideration, i would guess Schar would missidentify Renown as a 35000 ton battleship and try to escape (somehow). It would only fire with the rear (C) turret, while Renown would fire with the fw (2 x 2 x 381mm) guns... It's hard to say what would happen... But Schar was unlucky and had stability problems...

[paul.mercer]

Many thanks for your replies, You say that 'On paper it is hard to imagine Renown disabling or destroying Scharhorst', presumably you mean on her own' I realise that Renown was a fairly lightly armoured battlecruiser albeit heavily armed,
wereas Scharnhost was (in the British view) a Battleship, however in their last encounter off Norway Renown had a large part of her torpedo bulge breaking away and slowing her down so it would have been unlikely that Scharnhorst would have been able to get away from Renown at North Cape and in a stern chase Renown would be able to field 6 x15" against 3 x 11". Personally, (and I am happy to bow to the knowledge of the experts in this forum) I think Renown (if she was in the same fighting condition with a similar fully worked up crew as in the Norwegian campaign) would have crippled Scharnhorst with her heavy shells and a cruiser or destroyers would have finished her off with torpedoes.
I think I may have double posted this, If so, sorry!