Duke of York & Renown at Noth Cape

[Dave Saxton]

I think Renown (if she was in the same fighting condition with a similar fully worked up crew as in the Norwegian campaign) would have crippled Scharnhorst with her heavy shells and a cruiser or destroyers would have finished her off with torpedoes.

I look at it the other way around. Unless destroyers can cripple either the SH or the Renown, the big boys exchange a few ineffective salvoes/hits at medium to long range and they both return to port with moderate damage assuming a few hits are attained. If the battle range becomes too extreme then its gets much riskier for the Renown with its battle cruiser level deck protection and the SH's 11" shells attaining rather steep angles of fall.

[RF]

You have a two on one as far as battleships go. The Tirpitze and Duke of York are relativly evenly matched (I'd give a slight edge to Tirpitz) throw in Scharnhorst and the British have to hope for a lucky torpedo or shell hit to have a chance. In any case either of these are a big step away from the original and probalby should have their own thread.

Gentlemen,
I have taken the liberty of cutting and pasting the above from the other thread 'Tirpitz & Scharnhorst at North Cape'
If we take the British task force to include DoY and Renown + all their cruisers and destroyers against the two German ships + their destroyer escort how would that pan out?

Taking this on the original post quoted above my first impression is that the addition of Renown tips the balance into favour of the RN. Scharnhorst would have to deal with Renown instead of assisting Tirpitz engaging DOY. The risk then is of the effect of 15 inch shell hits on Scharnhorst. The only hope for the Germans is for Tirpitz to target Renown first for a quick knockout blow but that leaves DOY the luxury of firing on Tirpitz unmolested. Rather similar scenario to the DS battle, where Bismarck did quickly dispose of Hood. But DOY and Renown are a more formidable combination than Hood/POW especially as DOY was fully worked up unlike POW.

[paulcadogan]

One of the difficulties both sides would face is target identification - even under fair light and weather it would take well-trained observers to distinguish Tirpitz from Scharnhorst AND DoY from Renown, much less in the dark, with starshell - worse if the ships were inclined towards or away. The assumption would be Tirpitz leading Scharnhorst and DoY leading Renown with each engaging their opposite number in the line. But as the DS showed, that might not have been the case!

But my view is that the reconstructed Renown with reinforced deck protection and 1943 radar-directed gunnery was more than a match for Scharnhorst and would have crippled her in a duel - if Scharnhorst could not flee out of range first. Tirptz vs DoY would be up in the air.

[Dave Saxton]

But my view is that the reconstructed Renown with reinforced deck protection and 1943 radar-directed gunnery was more than a match for Scharnhorst and would have crippled her in a duel - if Scharnhorst could not flee out of range first. Tirptz vs DoY would be up in the air.

The German radar directed gunnery in 1943 was superior to the British, and the Scharnhorst's and Tirpitz's protection is far superior to Renown's (and in my opinion the DoY too), though.

[RobertsonN]

There are two points about the North Cape which seem unclear: (a) When was the decisive hit that slowed Scharnhorst down?; (b) Where did the decisive shell strike and with what effect? The view that has been predominant since the publication of the Dulin and Garzke book is that the hit occurred at about 18.24 and entered a boiler room through the vulnerable vertical part of the dome over the boilers (as with the Admiral Hipper the boilers used were larger than those planned for). However, Frazer's official account of the battle (later published in the London Gazette) says that the vital hit was made early on (about 17.00), that it was underwater, but that its full effect only slowly became manifest. According to this account, the hit at about 18.24 put turret B out of action. IIRC Frazer's account says the distance between Scharnhorst and DOY increased for a while after 18.24, but by then the attacking destroyers were coming into good positions to attack on Scharnhorst's flanks.

[Thorsten Wahl]

(a) When was the decisive hit that slowed Scharnhorst down

It should be called decisive Event -possibly an impact-

[Dave Saxton]

(

a) When was the decisive hit that slowed Scharnhorst down?; (b) Where did the decisive shell strike and with what effect?

That assumes that the Scharnhorst was slowed by a decisive hit. There is little evidence that the SH was actually slowed by a hit from Duke of York, but there's more compelling evidence that SH was slowed by a temporay machinery break down instead. There is a major chronology problem to the decisive hit theories. The British first noted a sudden loss in speed of SH on thier radar plots at least 15 minutes after Duke of York ceased fire. Fraser had already issued orders calling off the chase. I find a hit from 17:00 suddenly taking effect at the crucial time rather unlikely. Aside from knocking out Anton early on at short range, the few 14" hits were not very effective against the SH. It was the Torpedoes hits that ultimately proved decisive.

[RF]

The German radar directed gunnery in 1943 was superior to the British, and the Scharnhorst's and Tirpitz's protection is far superior to Renown's (and in my opinion the DoY too), though.

I'm not convinced of this in the case of Scharnhorst. Renown would only be facing 11 inch fire (assuming Tirpitz concentrates on DOY, which logically it should, unless the German Fleet Commander takes a gamble on Tirpitz trying to blow up the Renown and giving DOY some free target practice) but Scharnhorst faces 15 inch fire as I would expect the British commander to feel strong enough for DOY to target Tirpitz on its own. Is Scharnhorst able to withstand 15 inch hits and continue concentrated fire on Renown? Would the 11 inch make an impression on Renown?

[Thorsten Wahl]

regarding Renown vs SH in general it is expected by the germans to have lower own pentrative and destructive abilites
to minimise this inferiority there is is either recommendation to fight at distances below 14 km(against verticalprotection ) ore above 20 km ( against horizontal protection) in between is expected as baddest.

[Dave Saxton]

Is Scharnhorst able to withstand 15 inch hits and continue concentrated fire on Renown? Would the 11 inch make an impression on Renown?

Yes, yes, and yes, to those questions.

Scharnhorst had a 350mm belt backed up by heavy scarps. It also had deck protection capable of withstanding 15" fire out to at least 25km battle range.

The Renown on the otherhand, has only a belt of 3"-9". The high velocity 11" can easily overmatch that. Additionally, at long range if you look at the ballistic data in GKdos 100, the light weight 11" develops rather steep angles of fall. The Renown's upgraded deck protection over limited areas may still be insufficient.

In terms of protection SH was a modern battleship and Renown was still a battlecruiser.

[19kilo]

I'm lost here........if Scharnhorst was so well built and apparently well protected against 15in shells, why is she sitting on the bottom of the ocean? I mean, if she wasnt vulnerable to Renown firing 15in projectiles, how was she harmed by the 14in ones from DoY?

[Dave Saxton]

It's not that simple, but simply put, Scharnhorst was sunk by torpedoes, not 14" shells. Scharnhorst was brought to a standstill as well by torpedoes, not 14" shells. If there were no torpedo hits scored, Scharnhorst escapes.

[RF]

Scharnhorst I believe took eleven torpedo hits, including seven in the final action. The ship's designers believed she could take thirteen and float.

[RF]

Scharnhorst had a 350mm belt backed up by heavy scarps. It also had deck protection capable of withstanding 15" fire out to at least 25km battle range.

I posed my questions in view of the 14 inch fire from DOY knocking out two of the 11 inch triple turrets on Scharnhorst. While Renown has only 60% of the number of heavy guns of a KGV my question was really aimed at Scharnhorst being able to sustain heavy fire if the turrets could be knocked out, or the gunnery control was clobbered by a 15 inch hit, as was Gneisenau in the 1940 engagement.

[RobertsonN]

The Scharnhorst should have had an advantage over Renown for ranges under about 16500 yds. At this distance Breyer gives the penetration of the 11 in as 14 in (18 in at 8600 yds and 11.4 in at 20000 yds, so it fell rapidly with distance). IIRC, the fighting instructions for Scharnhorst did give the main fighting distance as inside 15000 m with another region over 20000 m, where the Germans thought they might score more hits than their opponents. At this range penetration would have probably have been enough to penetrate the vertical protection of Renown, provided the latter was not more than say 35 to 40 deg aft of the Scharnhorst's beam. The explosive charge of the 11 in shell was much less, at 6.6 kg, than the Renown's 15 in. However the 11 in had a reasonable chance of a penetrating hit as in Hood, while the Scharnhorst's belt and scarp was very unlikely to be penetrated. (It is a good question whether an 11 in exploding in Hood in some of the probable detonation sites (those not in a 4 in magazine) would have created enough high energy splinters to cause the whole massive explosion that resulted.) The closer the range became the more the advantage would be with Scharnhorst, but the likelihood of torpedo attack by cruisers and destroyers would have likely meant minimum range was something like 12000 yds, where the 11 in could penetrate about 16 in.
There is a good description of the Renown's protection on the WW II Cruisers site. The belt was 9 in, quite narrow and tapered to 2 in at the bottom, with 2 in HT (1 + 1) on the sloped deck behind the belt. Over the boiler rooms 1.5 in NC was added to the original 1 in HT, while there was 2.5 in on the flat at the sides above the sloping deck. The engine rooms had 2 in NC (over the from 1919 3 in (1 + 1 + 1) HT?). Over the main magazines 2 in NC was added to the 3 layers of 1 in HT, while there was also 2 in HT added to the slopes at the side of the magazines and 4 in NC on the flat above the slope out to near the belt. The 4.5 in magazines had 4.5 in NC over them.
I say should because Renown was a weatherly vessel whereas Scharnhorst's foremost turret was unusable in heavy seas during the encounter with Renown in 1940.
Is there a reference for the Scharnhorst's designer's believing she could float after 13 torpedo hits (with 250 kg warheads?)?