H class Battleships

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
Thorsten Wahl
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

Im not sure about the main guns mentioned for the H41-44 ship studies
"Vermerk für OB. d.M. Überschwere Kaliber für Kriegsschiffneubauten 06.11.1942 B.Nr. 7763-42 gKdos" didnt mention guns with caliber other than 45 cm or 50 cm
follow this link
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/coppermine ... gKdos_.pdf

in addition there was a so called Gerät 36 with 53,3 cm Kaliber and 2.200kg shells probably only a vague study like the above mentioned (45 cm) C/42h2 and (50 cm) C/42i2
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

RF wrote:I think the intention is that they ''show up'' by 1940 or 1941 at the latest.
So when do you propose they start work on them?
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by RF »

Around 1934 to 1936.

The 1934 agreement by definition ''allowed'' the Germans to openly construct carriers to 35% of the British total.
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

Ok how do you pay for them at that point? The German economy was rather severely constrained during that period.
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Djoser »

Well this is the 'hypothetical' thread, so maybe we can posit that Germany didn't reach such abysmal levels of productive capacity in the late 20s and early 30s--maybe the reparations demands weren't quite so drastic, the NY Stock Exchange failure didn't bring the entire world crashing to a halt, or some other variable factors.

The crucial question here is not whether the ships could have been paid for (as well as any Allied counter builds), but what the ships would have been like, how they would have been employed, and how the Allies would have dealt with them.

By god, even one of the early H-class battleships would have been extraordinary by any standards. Probably very beautiful ships as well..
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

Djoser wrote:Well this is the 'hypothetical' thread, so maybe we can posit that Germany didn't reach such abysmal levels of productive capacity in the late 20s and early 30s--maybe the reparations demands weren't quite so drastic, the NY Stock Exchange failure didn't bring the entire world crashing to a halt, or some other variable factors.

The crucial question here is not whether the ships could have been paid for (as well as any Allied counter builds), but what the ships would have been like, how they would have been employed, and how the Allies would have dealt with them. ...
Except you can't really do that unless you can put them in context and that means also considering what the other impacts of building them would be both on Germany and other nations. In a world where there's no Great Depression and the reparations are significantly less do you even have a Nazi Germany? If there are H class battleships are their Lions and Montana's as well?
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by RF »

lwd wrote:Ok how do you pay for them at that point? The German economy was rather severely constrained during that period.
The same way that Schacht managed to finance the rest of German re-armament in the mid- 1930's

''Constraints on the German economy'' needs to be qualified. Germany still had some one million unemployed in the summer of 1938 and much of smaller private business was suffering from the stifling bureaucracy and controls the nazi government introduced. A more free market approach to enterprise and policies to improve labour productivity and materials allocation were needed.
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

RF wrote:
lwd wrote:Ok how do you pay for them at that point? The German economy was rather severely constrained during that period.
The same way that Schacht managed to finance the rest of German re-armament in the mid- 1930's

''Constraints on the German economy'' needs to be qualified. Germany still had some one million unemployed in the summer of 1938 and much of smaller private business was suffering from the stifling bureaucracy and controls the nazi government introduced. A more free market approach to enterprise and policies to improve labour productivity and materials allocation were needed.
Indeed but that means that building the military in general and the additional ships in particular will likely have to be put off for a bit. Germany was also rather short on a lot of materails as they had manipulated the currency to limit the effect of reperations which resulted in a severe foreign exchange deficit. They were pretty much reduced to bartering finished goods and in particular machinery for material.
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Djoser »

lwd wrote:
Djoser wrote:Well this is the 'hypothetical' thread, so maybe we can posit that Germany didn't reach such abysmal levels of productive capacity in the late 20s and early 30s--maybe the reparations demands weren't quite so drastic, the NY Stock Exchange failure didn't bring the entire world crashing to a halt, or some other variable factors.

The crucial question here is not whether the ships could have been paid for (as well as any Allied counter builds), but what the ships would have been like, how they would have been employed, and how the Allies would have dealt with them. ...
Except you can't really do that unless you can put them in context and that means also considering what the other impacts of building them would be both on Germany and other nations. In a world where there's no Great Depression and the reparations are significantly less do you even have a Nazi Germany? If there are H class battleships are their Lions and Montana's as well?
Fine, let the other nations build their own super battleships--the 'H' class could have still been built without too much being all that drastically different--perhaps a somewhat smaller Luftwaffe, whatever. There could even have been 'H' class battleships without a Hitler or a Nazi party as well. All that would be required was the perception of a need for an extremely powerful battleship, and the willingness to correspondingly lower other armaments priorities to get the ship(s) built.

So let's return to an analysis of what the existence of H class battleships might have meant in tactical and strategic terms, and maybe spend less time in the Hypothetical Naval Scenarios section saying no such hypothetical scenarios were possible? :lol:

But I'm all for well-reasoned hypothetical scenarios, of course!
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Djoser »

RF wrote:
lwd wrote:Ok how do you pay for them at that point? The German economy was rather severely constrained during that period.
The same way that Schacht managed to finance the rest of German re-armament in the mid- 1930's

''Constraints on the German economy'' needs to be qualified. Germany still had some one million unemployed in the summer of 1938 and much of smaller private business was suffering from the stifling bureaucracy and controls the nazi government introduced. A more free market approach to enterprise and policies to improve labour productivity and materials allocation were needed.
Also--I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong (and possibly even if I am right lol!)--it has been my understanding that Germany didn't embark on the kind of rigorous economic/production limitations (that say Soviet Russia had) necessary for total mobilization of the nation's resources for munitions production, until mid-war. It was 'Guns and Butter' then, for the German nation until the end was in sight. Granted such more drastic controls on national production could have caused civilian discontent...
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

Djoser wrote:
lwd wrote:Except you can't really do that unless you can put them in context and that means also considering what the other impacts of building them would be both on Germany and other nations. In a world where there's no Great Depression and the reparations are significantly less do you even have a Nazi Germany? If there are H class battleships are their Lions and Montana's as well?
Fine, let the other nations build their own super battleships--the 'H' class could have still been built without too much being all that drastically different--perhaps a somewhat smaller Luftwaffe, whatever.
I think you understimate the cost of buidling these ships. Then there's the question about how much smaller the rest of the Wehrmact can get and still succeed in the conquest of France. Or can it at all anyway. Certainly building the H class will raise some eyebrows in Britain as well as elsewhere.
There could even have been 'H' class battleships without a Hitler or a Nazi party as well. All that would be required was the perception of a need for an extremely powerful battleship, and the willingness to correspondingly lower other armaments priorities to get the ship(s) built.
But how closely would this resemble an H class? Wouldn't it very mcuh determien what the actual percieved need was?
So let's return to an analysis of what the existence of H class battleships might have meant in tactical and strategic terms, and maybe spend less time in the Hypothetical Naval Scenarios section saying no such hypothetical scenarios were possible?
But how do you determine the tactical and strategic implications if you don't know what assets the various powers have available?
Djoser wrote:Also--I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong (and possibly even if I am right lol!)--it has been my understanding that Germany didn't embark on the kind of rigorous economic/production limitations (that say Soviet Russia had) necessary for total mobilization of the nation's resources for munitions production, until mid-war. It was 'Guns and Butter' then, for the German nation until the end was in sight. Granted such more drastic controls on national production could have caused civilian discontent...
I strongly suggest you read Wages of Destruction. The German economy was pretty much broken in the mid and late 30's. Germany absent the Austrian gold reserves might well have been bankrupt by the early 40's if not sooner.
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Pandora »

lwd asked, how do you pay for additional ships?
well the first thing that comes to my mind.... cancel all Nuremberg constructions and other Nazi arquitectural projects all over Germany (let Hitler live in the old chancellery), and there you have plenty of money. lwd, you are an intelligent person and I am sure that if you think a little you can find a couple of other places from where to get money to build ships.
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

Pandora wrote:lwd asked, how do you pay for additional ships?
well the first thing that comes to my mind.... cancel all Nuremberg constructions and other Nazi arquitectural projects all over Germany (let Hitler live in the old chancellery), and there you have plenty of money. lwd, you are an intelligent person and I am sure that if you think a little you can find a couple of other places from where to get money to build ships.
Read at least the first few chapters in Wages of Destruction and then we can discuss it. My impression is that if the Nazi's had allocated enough funds to building the H class to have them complete by the late 30's then they weren't going to have an army that could take out France in 1940. They might not even still be in power by that time. Do you have a figure by the way for what those cost? And how many were employeed in the process?
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Pandora »

lwd wrote: Read at least the first few chapters in Wages of Destruction and then we can discuss it.
I know that book what do u want to discuss about it?
lwd wrote: My impression is that if the Nazi's had allocated enough funds to building the H class to have them complete by the late 30's then they weren't going to have an army that could take out France in 1940.
what does the army have to do with battleships? also France was defeated using only a small portion of the German army.
lwd wrote: Do you have a figure by the way for what those cost? And how many were employeed in the process?
yes I do.
do you have a figure for what the new chancellery and the Zeppelinweise alone costed? and how many were employeed in the process?
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

Pandora wrote:
lwd wrote: Read at least the first few chapters in Wages of Destruction and then we can discuss it.
I know that book what do u want to discuss about it?
It makes it rather clear that the German economy didn't have a significant amount of slack in the period we are discussing.
lwd wrote: My impression is that if the Nazi's had allocated enough funds to building the H class to have them complete by the late 30's then they weren't going to have an army that could take out France in 1940.
what does the army have to do with battleships? also France was defeated using only a small portion of the German army.
The German government only had a certain amount of cash and other resources to work with. If they allocate more towards ships in particular battleships then it has to come from somewhere. Even into the mid 30's it's not clear that the Nazis were in firm enough control to cut back on civilian spending. The imlication is it has to come from elsewhere ... i.e. other military spending.

As for France being defeated by "only a small portion of the German army" http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 45&t=30229 rather implies it was the majority and not only that that it was the more expensive components of it and the Luftwaffe.
lwd wrote: Do you have a figure by the way for what those cost? And how many were employeed in the process?
yes I do. [/quote]
In case you missed it that was a rather thinly veiled request for you to produce it.
do you have a figure for what the new chancellery and the Zeppelinweise alone costed? and how many were employeed in the process?
No I don't. If you do why don't you state it rather than wasting time?
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