H class Battleships

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Postby lwd » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:45 pm

As for the results. I would expect both sides to have at least one heavily damaged battleship. The looser is likely to have at least 3 heavily damaged and the winner one or two with moderate damage to another one or two. I'd give the allies an edge although the Germans could pull an upset in the first engagement. The problem for the Germans is that anything that's been slowed down significantly is likely to be caught by the other British/allied force. The exception might be if they tried breaking out east of Iceland and they didn't loose much speed in which case they might make it back to Norway.

paul.mercer
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Re: H class Battleships

Postby paul.mercer » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:52 pm

Iwd,
Just a thought. If we leave out Nelson, Rodney and the other WW1 battleships because they are too slow for a modern engagement as well as Renown & Repulse because of their weak armour and concentrate on the modern WW2 ships and we had for the RN,
one Lion, and the five KGv class + a carrier and the usual destroyer escorts and for the Kreigsmarine
one H class, Bismarck, Tirpitz + Scharnhorst and Gneisnau rearmed with 15" (would it be 6 x15 or 9 x 15?) and Graf Zeppelin as their carrier + destroyer escorts.
How about that for a fleet action?

lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Postby lwd » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:10 pm

Renown and Repulse have better armor than the cruisers and destroyers do they not? I don't see leaving them out especially if Denmark strait hasn't been fought. The trick is to use them in such a way that they don't become the prime targets.

Carriers in a fleet action with much gunfire are a bit of a liability. One wants to keep them well out of range of ones opponents guns. In the event of a major fleet action like you propose one good use of the BC might be going after the German carriers. If this is fought in the North Sea or close to Norway I suspect the carriers would stay at least 100 miles or so from the action. If it's not in there I'm not sure any German destroyers would likely be present. What cruisers would be present is another question. I'm sure the British would have some. Weather on the otherhand might take the British DDs out of the picture as well.

In a pure BB action with the ships you listed I'd give an edge to the British but not as much of one as they would want. If you match up strongest to weakest the Germans have IMO an edge in the first 3 match ups and the British in the last two. However the extra British battleship could give them a significant edge in one of the first three (i.e. 2 KGV's vs a Bismarck). The addition of the two BC's in this case could give the British a decisive edge producing an initial match up something like. H vs Lion, Bismarck vs 2 KGV's, Tirpitz vs 2 KGV's, Scharnhorst vs a KGV, and Gneisnau vs the two BC's. This would give the British a substantial edge in all but the first which something the British would very much like to have.

paul.mercer
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Re: H class Battleships

Postby paul.mercer » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:31 pm

The keeping of the carriers out of harms way in what would be a 'slugfest' (is there such a word?) would be a good idea. Do you think the twins armed with 6 or 9 15" would make a decisive difference?
If we have a slightly different senario where Gt Btitain sticks to the Wasington Treaty and do not build the Lions(we're British, we obey the rules and stick to our agreements - rather like our relationship with the EU today!) and update Nelson and Rodney with better armour, fire control and bigger engines giving them a fast battleship speed in the region of 28-30 knots together with the five KGv's, would that give the RN a decisive edge - without Repulse & Renown? I'm assuming all the ships on both sides are fully worked up and all the KGv guns work!

lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Postby lwd » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:24 pm

I don't think you can get 9 15" guns on the twins. 6 was possible with some significant modification.

As for which does better in this scenario the Germans need to get some "lucky" hits in fast to turn around their dissadvantage. The 11" guns with a higher rate of fire and 9 vs 6 give some advantages this way on the other hand the additional penetration of the 15" guns do also. At longer ranges the 15 might be better (or not) at closer ranges I suspect the 11" guns is better but that's just my impression. It would take a fair amount of work looking at armor over critical areas and considering the effects of HE vs AP (for instance 11" HE at longer ranges might be able to significantly impact the fire control of the British battleships with some luck where sticking to AP with the 15's one has a better chance of taking out a turret or effecting engineering). Best way to do this is probably to find a good game and play it multiple times. It still won't be defintitive but might lend some insight.

paul.mercer
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Re: H class Battleships

Postby paul.mercer » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:40 pm

Thanks for that info.
As to my other question, would the uprated (and faster) Rodney & Nelson have tipped the balance in favour of the RN?
The reason I left out Repulse & Renown was because the twins would have had 15" guns which I think might have been too much for the two elderly battlecruiders.


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