lwd wrote:Djoser wrote:lwd wrote:Except you can't really do that unless you can put them in context and that means also considering what the other impacts of building them would be both on Germany and other nations. In a world where there's no Great Depression and the reparations are significantly less do you even have a Nazi Germany? If there are H class battleships are their Lions and Montana's as well?
Fine, let the other nations build their own super battleships--the 'H' class could have still been built without too much being all that drastically different--perhaps a somewhat smaller Luftwaffe, whatever.
I think you understimate the cost of buidling these ships. Then there's the question about how much smaller the rest of the Wehrmact can get and still succeed in the conquest of France. Or can it at all anyway. Certainly building the H class will raise some eyebrows in Britain as well as elsewhere.
There could even have been 'H' class battleships without a Hitler or a Nazi party as well. All that would be required was the perception of a need for an extremely powerful battleship, and the willingness to correspondingly lower other armaments priorities to get the ship(s) built.
But how closely would this resemble an H class? Wouldn't it very mcuh determien what the actual percieved need was?
So let's return to an analysis of what the existence of H class battleships might have meant in tactical and strategic terms, and maybe spend less time in the Hypothetical Naval Scenarios section saying no such hypothetical scenarios were possible?
But how do you determine the tactical and strategic implications if you don't know what assets the various powers have available?
Djoser wrote:Also--I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong (and possibly even if I am right lol!)--it has been my understanding that Germany didn't embark on the kind of rigorous economic/production limitations (that say Soviet Russia had) necessary for total mobilization of the nation's resources for munitions production, until mid-war. It was 'Guns and Butter' then, for the German nation until the end was in sight. Granted such more drastic controls on national production could have caused civilian discontent...
I strongly suggest you read
Wages of Destruction. The German economy was pretty much broken in the mid and late 30's. Germany absent the Austrian gold reserves might well have been bankrupt by the early 40's if not sooner.
OK I will have to check out the book, thanks for posting about it--it will make an excellent complementary bit of reading to
The Arms of Krupp which I recently finished. In the meantime, I can address some of these points.
I am not underestimating the cost of the ships. I am positing a slightly different set of historical circumstances, in order to consider what the effect of maybe 2 H class battleships could have had upon a slightly different world order. Or better yet, one H class and one H class hull modified and completed as an aircraft carrier
a la Kagi, Lexington, etc.. This is, after all, the 'Hypothetical Naval Scenarios' section--not the 'Why No Hypothetical Naval Scenarios Could Ever Possibly Happen' section.
One way the German economy could have avoided the crushing burden it faced in the 30s--no Stock Market Crash. Anyone who knows much about the stock market in the 20s (or even today) can tell you it was based on herd psychology, a contrived and precarious facade which nonetheless had the power to devastate the world's economic health--even though there wasn't any less coal, steel, or trained workers, etc. The crash certainly affected Germany--perhaps worse than the USA, as any number of sources will attest. Here is just one for an example:
http://voices.yahoo.com/how-did-stock-m ... 24658.html.
So we have a Germany in much better shape to build ships, with perhaps an increased emphasis on defense spending and less propaganda derived ostentatious building as others have pointed out could have happened.
As far as the design difference had Hitler not taken power--Hitler was not the designer of the Bismarck or the H Class. The same highly talented naval architects would have been ready to draw up plans for a better battleship in the 30s, and could well have duplicated what was in fact designed.
"But how do you determine the tactical and strategic implications if you don't know what assets the various powers have available?"
Because I have an imagination, and I like to use it, therefore I can easily use it, and it is enjoyable to do so. So I can readily come up with various scenarios positing altered naval orders of battle. Maybe it is my historical gaming background at work. Obviously the other powers will be likely construct bigger and/or more battleships to counter the H class, which leads to an abundance of fascinating possibilities. The Lion built earlier, bigger and upgunned KGVs, less treaty restrictions applied to the SDs and Iowas--the variables are many and offer intriguing potential for intellectual amusement. Which I believe to be the purpose of this area of the forum.