County class heavy cruiser vs. Hipper class heavy cruiser

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miro777
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County class heavy cruiser vs. Hipper class heavy cruiser

Post by miro777 »

hey

wat do u guys think about a battle of one against one of a county cruiser against a hipper cruiser???

miro
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Antonio Bonomi
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Prinz Eugen versus Norfolk and Suffolk

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Miro and all,

you may want to try to analize the Denmark Strait battle '' IF '' Norfolk and Suffolk were going to engage the Prinz Eugen as planned.

That will be really interesting :wink:


Norfolk and Suffolk : County class evolution

Prinz Eugen : Admiral Hipper class evolution

Ciao Antonio :D
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

hey

sounds interesting...but if Norfolk AND Suffolk would both take part in the battle, the chances for a german victory would even sink lower...

Royal Navy
HMS Hood
HMS Prince of Wales
HMS Norfolk
HMS Suffolk

Kriegsmarine
Bismarck
Prinz Eugen

wooow that is not equal
but ok lets say it still happened
first we have to say that the british knew hu the leading ship was
then the two cruiser would have attacked the Prinz Eugen, and most possibly sunk her
and the two heavy units would have taken the Bismarck on
in my opinion both units (BS and PE) are in single combat better than their opponents (imean one on one)
So the bismarck could sink the Hood
and the eugen could sink the Norfolk

ok
lets now not focus on the battleship battle
the cruiser battle
basically the firepower is double on the british side
the secondary armament on PE is better but that would not make such a difference
i would actually think that luetjens would have commanded the PE to stay and fight with him the battleships instead of the splitting up of the foreces and thereby losing their power
but lets say the PE got split from the BS, then she would have to fight a superior power
she would concentrate her full fire power on one of the ships
if really lucky hits are not 'counted' she may have been able to sink or really damage badly one of the cruisers, and then she will be damaged badly as well
so then a totally undamaged second cruiser just finishes her while the other one retreats...
therefore the battle of the icneland straaight would have been lost
i am not sure which of the two classes are faster but if the PE would have been, the best way would have been to run away

so in total i think the PE could have taken on either of them (norfolk or suffolk) alone, but not both

miro

ps wat do u think???
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Antonio Bonomi
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County class vs Hipper class

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Miro and all,

OK, I see that you evaluated pretty well the scenario and I basically agree.

Prinz Eugen may sink one of them but not both, and if they were scoring firts maybe not even able to damage one of them considerably.

Now you understand well what happened there and you can evaluate more how smart Adm Lutjens was to understand the whole scenario.

Adm Lutjens realized the advantages on his ship relative position and run the risk engaging the 2 battleship with Prinz Eugen in line of battle ahead of Bismarck.

Meanwhile ordering Baron Mullenheim-Rechberg on Bismarck aft director to keep a good eye on the 2 British cruisers and to report immediately if they were closing into the battle ( and did not happened).

Now try to imagine what was going to happen after '' IF '' at 06.03 from Prinz Eugen they were NOT going to issue the WRONG/FALSE torpedo alarm causing both Bismarck and Prinz Eugen to turn starboard and away from PoW under precise fire from 13.000 meters.

Hood sunk, PoW had received 7 hits, and the 2 British cruisers were behind Bismarck each side.

Ciao Antonio :D
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

hey

hmm if i understood u correctly, u want me to analyze the scenario
where the hood is sunk
and there was NO false torpedo alarm?

then i guess to two German ships would have continued shooting at the POW, which then concludes in the sinking of the POW???

if that would have happened i think that the British commander of the POW would have ordered the two cruisers to take part in the battle, put the attention of at least one of the ships on cruisers and then try to make a run. Aftr the successful escape of the POW, the cruisers, which hopefully did not get any severe hits would make a run as well and would continue to observe the german ships from distance, until heavy forces have arrived and aer ready to involve the Bismarck into a naval battle.

So then the false alarm did actually save the Bismarck from a much faster end.
Because if she would have continued to fight against the POW, even just fro a short time, she certainly would have gotten some more hits, which depending on how severe they were would have influenced the plannings of Luetjens.
Either way, the Bismarck would have been sunk, but it's still and interesting scenario....

miro
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Antonio Bonomi
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Battle scenario

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Miro and all,

please remember that we are ONLY analyzing a potential scenario, as reality could change as we saw just by a simple ALARM warning for a torpedo.

You are at 06.02 and 30 seconds, the Hood is sinking and PoW is under severe punishments as both Schneider ( BS first artillery officer ) and Jasper ( PG first artillery officer ) do have her on straddle and repeatedly scoring hits, distance is closing fast, currently 14.000 meters.

BS and PG are on course 220 degrees straight ( perfect for the artillery directors ) while PoW is turning away having had one terrible hit on the compass platform killing almost everybody.

On board PoW during the turn away the A quadruple turret went out of action so her 4 guns became unusable.
The B turret had still her 2 guns usable.
On the Y quadruple turret only 2 guns working, than 1 than 0 within a minute.
So basically only 2 guns still usable and both aft only on B turret.

Norfolk was at 23.000 meters east and Suffolk 28.000 meters north west of Bismarck.

If I was on Adm Lutjens shoes, I was going to continue for other 3-5 minutes on course 220 degrees with both ships scoring more hits on PoW, than turn BS port on a parallel course with PoW on her port side at a stable 12.000 meters from her and put Bismarck between PoW and the 2 British cruisers that consequently very hardly would have closed under 20.000 meters from Bismarck guns.
Bismarck forward group ( 4 guns ) still firing to PoW from 12.000 meters while aft group ( 4 guns ) firing to Norfolk (closer ) and keep her away from BS guns, in case Suffolk closing in taking care of her as well even if chances were very remote ( Suffolk did not wanted to be damaged due to her radar screen mission ).

This way Bismarck move ( a 50 degree to port on course 170 degrees ) had 2 results :

1) Still keep PoW under fire and forcing her to react to BS with all guns she had ( only 2 and on local control ).

2) Keep Norfolk and Suffolk far away from Prinz Eugen as Bismarck was in between them and they had to either come under BS main guns ( with mortal risks ) to try to reach PG or make a very large circle which puts them out of the battle.

If PoW tries to close to Norfolk and Suffolk is coming under killing distance for Bismarck guns, otherwise she can only turn away ( south east ) and BS only had to turn accordingly keeping her under fire.

Prinz Eugen relative position becomes very important.

Prinz Eugen has to sail on the other side of PoW compared to BS, so to PoW starboard.

This way forces PoW to use her 2 remaining guns only to one target and logic will say it will be BS, so PG is not targeted nor disturbed by any unit.

1) Prinz Eugen is not engaged by any unit on PoW starboard side ( only 2 PoW guns are trying to respond to BS on port side ).

2) Prinz Eugen can close and fastly hit PoW with all her 8 by 203 mm guns adding them to the 4 BS is using against PoW.

3) As PoW remaining 2 main guns go progressively out of action ( either for BS or PG hits ) than PG can close in and use her torpedoes.
PG is much faster than PoW and has 6 torpedo tubes each side.

Once PoW got her torpedoes from PG than both BS and PG must turn toward Norfolk and Suffolk which will sail away north west probably.

This way you try to free up from shadowers and turn south at full speed.

I think that Suffolk ( with best radar ) was not going neither to engage on the battle nor to loose radar contact so easily from the evasive manoeuvre as her main mission was to keep Bismarck under radar control, so the final result for Bismarck was probably not going to change anyway.

But most likely PoW was not going to see an harbour again and Norfolk will had to stop there to help her, even if the Hood destroyers were coming on the area too.

Anyway, just playing some strategy..... which I suppose was what Adm Lutjens was having in mind on that crucial minute, .. but than Kpt '' Papa' '' Brinkmann saw 2 torpedoes after his GHG room gave him a warning at 06.03,.. and PoW was safe, .. BS - Lindemann turned, PG turned ,..and I suppose Adm Lutjens staff thinking ( were Kpt H. Netzbandt a very good commander for Gneisenau was part of now :wink: ) aborted.

We know the story after.

But Adm Reader was not going to explain all this to Hitler on June 6th,... he surely understood well, .. but there was no need to let Hitler understand and put Brinkmann in trouble, ..... a wise decision.

Ciao Antonio :D
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

wow
thanx again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahah serriously this is good stuff
very realistic and even exciting

thanx

miro
Die See ruft....
iankw
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it's a big ocean

Post by iankw »

Hi Antonio

Good to see you are still educating the newcomers. Let me tell you miro, this man is a mine of information, about all aspects of the KM ships. That said I have to disagree with him on something, or at least point something out to him (I have done this before, maybe he forgot :shock: ) Antonio, don't forget that PoW had a captain too. The ocean is a big place and I really can't see Capt Leach choosing a course that would leave him in so much trouble. Why wouldn't he head north, towards the cruisers? He can always steer a course that would leave Lutjens the choice of turning with him, and thus abandoning his mission completely. I just can't see Lutjens doing that. If PoW had turned to a more northerly course I feel sure Lutjens would have carried on south. Of course battles can never be planned beyond the opening moves but I can't see Leach allowing his ship to be sunk beneath him.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Good move

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Iankw and all,

first of all thanks for the nice complimets :oops: :oops:

Well I see you are a good ''chess player'', .. and I agree about your theory, .. but Capt Leach did made a move at 06.03 and went south east, he did not turn north toward Norfolk.

That is exactly the moment a good occasion for Adm Lutjens showed up to make the move I was suggesting and to put Bismarck between PoW and Norfolk.

If you look at PoW map Capt Leach even corrected under the smoke screen 2 times his manoeuvres doing that.

For some minutes he was exposed to this move from Adm Lutjens and Bismarck because of that.

You are right, he could have turned north after, but at that point he was going to close to Bismarck and was going to pay a big price for that.

Anyway, Adm Lutjens orders were NOT to risk his ships, and I think that he was satisfyied to have escaped the trap and be free to run south anyway.

Turning port was going to be a clear initiative against a battleship that was not protecting a convoy, so against is orders, and if any damage was going to occur either to Bismarck or Prinz Eugen because of that he was going to be in trouble if ever back to Germany.

One day we should play chess ... I suppose you are a good player :D

Ciao Antonio :D
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Post by iankw »

Ah, chess!! I used to be a good player until I discovered wargames :wink: . Now I reckon I could give you a good run for your money on the field of Waterloo (or Borodino for that matter). Did you know you can play these games by email??? I used to be a member of the Napoleonic Wargames Society (NWC), rising to the rank of General in the French Armee du Nord. However, my bestest games are Risk (or, when I can get an opponent, Diplomacy) and Kingmaker.

Re BS/PoW. I think we have reached some form of agreement there so...

ciao (as you would say :D )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Chess and Napoleon

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao Iankw and all,

I realized you been a good chess player and with good knowledge about strategy from the way you describe your theories :wink:

YES, we are in agreement about BS vs PoW, some options to attack ( nut Adm Lutjens could not do it ), but as you said some measures could have been taken too in response by Capt. Leach and Adm Wake-Walker.

But we are here now 65 years after playing strategy calls with all the elements well known, they were there with the unknown and their orders plus their immediate needs and priorities.

As an example, what Adm Lutjens could have thought was coming after having been caught by surprise by 2 battleships just 20 minutes before, what was coming just after the horizon ??
We had years to think about it, they just few seconds.

Moving on Napoleon, I recall I should have wrote you that it is another of my passions : the study of the strategy and the battlefields, especially in Italy.
I have been studying Austerlitz as well and visited the battlefield, a bit less Waterloo.

No I do not play wargames :( , I just read and study for the fun of it.

But if you plan a trip in Italy I can show you Marengo, Arcole, Rivoli, Dego, Millesimo, Cosseria, Cairo Montenotte, Lodi, etc etc

Ciao ( thanks for the kind use of Italian :D ) Antonio :D
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Matthias
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Re: Chess and Napoleon

Post by Matthias »

Antonio Bonomi wrote: I have been studying Austerlitz as well and visited the battlefield, a bit less Waterloo.
:clap:

His action on the Pratzen has been magistral, it took the Russian completely unprepared...
"Wir kämpfen bis zur letzten Granate."

Günther Lütjens
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

There is computer game called "Fighting Steel" and the Denmarck Straits scenario includes the intervention of Norfolk and Suffolk. German cannot win in that circumstance. It´s obvious that the game cannot take in account a lot of variables that the real life "game" had. But there it is.
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Post by RF »

Coming back to the original proposition, a one on one battle between say Prinz Eugen and Devonshire (I pick these two as they did meet shortly after Germany capitulated) where both captains are ordered to fight to the finish and not to break off at the first opportunity, the key factor is who has the more accurate gunnery?
The winner almost certainly will be the ship that lands the first direct hits, because they are so evenly matched in main armament. If one of them has their firepower reduced the other gains the initiative. Disregard secondary armament, this would be a long range action. If both ships clobber each other simultaneously then you could end up with an epic slogging match that could last for hours - like the battle between Carmania and Cap Trafalgar in August 1914, although i realise these two vessels were AMCs.

If either Devonshire or PE comes to a stop because of battle damage, then I think the loser gets torpedoed for the KO.
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Post by Captain Morgan »

RF wrote:Coming back to the original proposition, a one on one battle between say Prinz Eugen and Devonshire (I pick these two as they did meet shortly after Germany capitulated) where both captains are ordered to fight to the finish and not to break off at the first opportunity, the key factor is who has the more accurate gunnery?
The winner almost certainly will be the ship that lands the first direct hits, because they are so evenly matched in main armament. If one of them has their firepower reduced the other gains the initiative. Disregard secondary armament, this would be a long range action. If both ships clobber each other simultaneously then you could end up with an epic slogging match that could last for hours - like the battle between Carmania and Cap Trafalgar in August 1914, although i realise these two vessels were AMCs.

If either Devonshire or PE comes to a stop because of battle damage, then I think the loser gets torpedoed for the KO.
Evaluate the Berwick-Adm Hipper battle. It was real even if it was aborted early.
There are 2 types of vessels out there. One type is called a target. If it isn't capable of silently doing 30+ knots at 2000 ft depth its always considered a target. The vessel that can silently go fast and deep is the one the targets are afraid of.
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