Graf Zeppelin vs HMS Ark Royal and Victorious

[RF]

Graf Zeppelin vs Ark Royal alone is a losing proposition for the Germans.

Of course! The Germans are such incompetent fellows and lousy sailors. In every scenario potrayed here, in your opinion, there is a nil chance for the Germans to accomplish more than to be easily defeated. Being that the case I don´t understand how they did to conquer all of Europe, quite "easily" as a matter of fact, and give a hard four year fight to the combined forces of the three superpowers and empires of the time: USA, GB and URSS. For a country smaller than Texas is quite a feat to accomplished that.

It was of course the Army that did the conquering. It didn't have to contend with, unlike the Kriegsmarine surface forces:

1)No unnecessary risks orders. On the contrary it could take, per Hitlers' orders, the most outrageous risks, and have the elan to get away with it.

2)Far better field commanders. The Kriegsmarine had no Guderian.

3)Greater combat experience and the chance to learn and adapt to that experience. The Kriegsmarine didn't get that experience, which in itself made it more cautious.

4)The big ships were more visible prestige objects, to be preserved rather than exposed to battle. The Waffen SS divisions were there to fight regardless of odds as their men were replaceable, far easier to replace than a ship.

5)The Kriegsmarine had more critical supply problems.

[miro777]

hey...
haha thats a good szenario....two aircraft carriers having a GUN battle...hehe

anyhow...i normally would say that i know every ship of WW 2...(or most of them)

but i never heard of the Europa...
what is that??

adios
miro

[Karl Heidenreich]

About Me 109"T" I found this:

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/index-1024.php

Best regards.

[José M. Rico]

The Stuka's landing gear was actually marginal for carrier use. A little strengthening was probably necessary.

The Ju-87 C had the whole fuselage structure strengthened indeed.

[Bgile]

A navy which utilizes CTOL carriers needs at least one training carrier to provide initial training and replacement pilots. What was the KM going to do about that? And please don't say "paint an outline on land". It isn't even close to the same thing. The US Navy had quite a number of carriers devoted to just resupplying the heavy CVs with replacement aircraft.

It took the US, Japan, and UK many years to develop successful naval carrier operations. The USSR tried and failed. The Germans are going to do it much faster because of the superiority of the Teutonic genes?

Remember Eric Hartman had the entire war to accumulate his kill total. I don't want to denegrate his accomplishment - in fact I'm a fan. Did you know he served in the West German Air Force after his release from the Gulag?

My point is just that US pilots were retired from active air combat after a large number of kills and sent back to do publicity and training. So no chance to get 350+ kills. Besides, toward the end there weren't many enemy planes around.

I dont' see any reason to think the Germans were inherently better pilots.

[Tiornu]

The Ju-87 C had the whole fuselage structure strengthened indeed."

Yes, I know.
Doesn't that Stuka look like the happiest plane? Nice big smile.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Tiornu:

Doesn't that Stuka look like the happiest plane? Nice big smile.

Indeed.

[Karl Heidenreich]

The highest ranking aces, both, in WWI and WWII were Germans: von Richtofen being the top in WWI when there weren´t too many planes neither. Hartmann in WWII followed by a bunch of Germans.
I agree that the Luftwaffe didn´t had the USAAF privilenge to retire their pilots after a tour of duty but retained them to fight for 5+ years (and against the commies also), so they can have a sky high kill rate.
But anyway, these Germans must be superb pilots to remain alive all that time (the other side of the coin) moreover between 1944-1945 when the skies were filled with allies and no much axis planes to assist.

[Bgile]

The highest ranking aces, both, in WWI and WWII were Germans: von Richtofen being the top in WWI when there weren´t too many planes neither. Hartmann in WWII followed by a bunch of Germans.
I agree that the Luftwaffe didn´t had the USAAF privilenge to retire their pilots after a tour of duty but retained them to fight for 5+ years (and against the commies also), so they can have a sky high kill rate.
But anyway, these Germans must be superb pilots to remain alive all that time (the other side of the coin) moreover between 1944-1945 when the skies were filled with allies and no much axis planes to assist.

Agree, although Hartman was shot down a couple of times. It helps to be lucky. There is no doubt he was a superb pilot with excellent eyesight and good tactics to back it up.

[Tiornu]

Is it true that Hartmann never lost a wingman? Of all his accomplishments, that's the one that astounds me most.

[tommy303]

Hi Tiornu,

Apparently not losing a wingman is true. In fact, in one mission, when he and his wingman tangled with six P51s over Hungary (i think), Hartmann had his wingman break for home while he engaged the enemy to give him time to make good his escape. His wingman escaped unscathed, although Hartmann had eventually to bail out when his plane ran out of fuel during the combat.

[Tiornu]

That impresses the heck out of me. Simply startling.

[RF]

but i never heard of the Europa...
what is that??

Hi miro,

The Europa was a liner/cruise ship, one of four vessels detailed to be converted to aircraft carriers. The liner Gneisenau (not to be confused with the battleship/battlecruiser of the same name) was another such vessel.

[RF]

A navy which utilizes CTOL carriers needs at least one training carrier to provide initial training and replacement pilots. What was the KM going to do about that? And please don't say "paint an outline on land". It isn't even close to the same thing. The US Navy had quite a number of carriers devoted to just resupplying the heavy CVs with replacement aircraft.

It took the US, Japan, and UK many years to develop successful naval carrier operations. The USSR tried and failed. The Germans are going to do it much faster because of the superiority of the Teutonic genes?

I dont' see any reason to think the Germans were inherently better pilots.

I believe the Germans did try to cut some corners by sending a technical commission to Japan to look at the carrier Akagi. This was to assist with the designs for Flugzeugtragers 'A' and 'B', the former became Graf Zeppelin.
I think the Germans would have had major problems with carriers if they had been completed. In particular:

1)Vulnerability to air attack in harbour - whether it be Baltic, Norway or France

2) They would be prime targets for Allied submarines

3)Problems with the Luftwaffe and Goering in particular, including training and availability of pilots

4)Logistical and supply problems

5)Problems in firing the 15 cm guns on the hulls/stability of the GZ ship class.

[Bgile]

Lexington and Saratoga had 8 8" guns in their initial configuration. They were removed and replaced with 8 5" guns. Some of the 8" turrets were emplaced on Oahu.