Italian fleet v British fleet

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
Just finished reading a new book 'The Battle of Matapan 1941' by Mark Simmons. In it he describes a situation that almost occurred when the Italians went to intercept a convoy which was escorted by three British battleships and a carrier (Nelson, Rodney, PoW ans Ark Royal). Apparently the Italians intended to send five of their remaining battleships which included two of their newer ones, Vittorio Veneto and Littorio and three older ones. As it happened they could only field the two new ships so decided against it. The question is this, if they had sent all their five ships against the three British ships and carrier what would have been the outcome?

[Dave Saxton]

This is an interesting scenario. I 'm watching what will be said here about the battleship match ups. Perhaps you should specify better cooperation than historical between the RM and land based air, so it doesn't just revolve around possible Allied carrier intervention.

[Rick Rather]

My first thought is, how many aerial torpedoes did Ark Royal have in her magazine?

[paulcadogan]

OK...what were talking about here is Operation Halberd which took place in September 1941 in which a convoy of 9 merchant ships sailing for Malta, under the escort of Force H came under attack by Italian aircraft. Italian surface forces put to sea, but reversed course upon learning of the strength of the escort.

I think a good what-if scenario would be the actual operation itself - if the Italian fleet had decided to put itself to the test.

Here are the opposing naval forces:

Royal Navy:
Battleships: Nelson (flag, V-Adm. Somerville), Rodney, Prince of Wales
Aircraft carrier: Ark Royal
Light cruisers: Edinburgh, Sheffield, Kenya, Euryalus, Hermione
Destroyers: 18

Regia Marina:
Battleships: Littorio (flag, Adm Iachino), Vittorio Veneto
Heavy cruisers: Trento, Trieste, Gorizia
Light cruisers: Abruzzi, Attendolo
Destroyers: 14

Hope I've got the summary below essentially correct:

Initially, the British forces were divided - Nelson, Ark Royal, Hermione and 5 destroyers acted as decoys to draw Italian attention away from the convoy itself, under close escort by the rest of the ships. Once Italian air attacks threatened, Nelson and Hermione rejoined the convoy, leaving the Ark and destroyers steaming ahead of it. During the attacks that followed, Nelson was hit by a torpedo that caused serious flooding (3,500 tons of water), cutting her speed. (I wouldn't want to have the helmsman's job on a Nelson during an aerial torpedo attack !).

The Italians too had their forces divided. The battleships and 7 destroyers in one group, and the cruisers and 7 destroyers in the other. The battleships were detected by the British and PoW and Rodney, with Edinburgh, Sheffield and 6 destroyers were despatched to intercept. Naturally, the British were hampered by Rodney's maximum 22 knot speed (just like at Spartivento with Renown and Ramillies). But it was soon found that the Italians had turned away and there was no hope of intercepting them.

Ark Royal then launched 12 Swordfish escorted by 4 Fulmars, but they failed to find the Italians. The force was ordered to return to the convoy.

The convoy reached Malta with the loss of 1 merchantman to an aerial torpedo. Force H, including the damaged Nelson returned to Gibraltar.

So the scenario is - with Nelson disabled by the torpedo hit, the Italians had to cope with PoW and Rodney, 2 light cruisers and 6 destroyers that were steaming out to challenge them. I'm not sure if the 2 Italian forces would have been able to join up before the encounter, but Littorio and VV would have made an interesting match-up vs PoW and Rodney.

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
Thanks for your replies, I was basing the senario on all five Italian Battleships being available (although three were apparently quite old) and Nelson being fully fit without torpedo damage as I presumed that the two Italians against three RN's + a carrier would have been a one way fight.

[Dave Saxton]

I was basing the senario on all five Italian Battleships being available (although three were apparently quite old)

The old Italian battleships were thoroughly modernized and reconstructed during the 30's under the direction of Chief Construction Engineer Pugliese. They utilized the Italian de-capping protection concepts and the Pugliese torpedo defense system (although the older ships were too small to realize the full potential of the Pugliese System). They had the same modern firecontrol systems as the Littorio class. The main battery guns were up bored to 320mm with a range of 28,600 meters, with 4.7" secondary battery in twin turrets in Cavour and Cesare, and 5.3" secondaries in triple turrets on Duillio and Andrea Doria. Speed was 28 knots.

By autum 41 the RN will have an advantage with radar. POW had nine seperate radar sets by this time, although I would have to dig out some books to narrow down what Rodney and Nelson had at that time. The Type 284 gunnery radar had a max range to a battleship of about 23,000 meters at that time. It was not blind fire capable at that time.

The Italians would have been radarless until March 42 if I recall correctly. The old RM BB's available during autum 41 would be Cesare, Duillio, and Doria.

Littorio and VV were formidable battleships by the standards of 1941. The 381mm/50 guns were very powerful. They were more powerful than R&N's 16" guns and North Carolina's 16" too.

[Dave Saxton]

Here's what I wrote previously about the Italian Gufo radar:

The radar was developed by Marconi under Gov supervision and by Gov funding. More money was invested in the radar's devlopment than it cost to build and fit out a new Littorio class battleship. The cover name was Gufo which means Owl. The production version was known as the EC3. A model was first installed for trials aboard Littorio during March 1941. The test radar failed miserably; being not able to reliably detect targets except at ranges of a few thousand meters. An improved version was developed through the use of imported Dutch made vacuum tubes. This increased the power output from 1kw to 10kw. The production version with the Dutch tubes was reclassified as EC3B. The perfomance specifications were as follows:

Wavelength: 75cm
Output: 10kw
PRF: 500
IF receiver bandwidth: 600mhz (this doesn't seem correct-600khz is more likely)
Bearing Resolution: 6*
Range Resolution: 600 meters
Bearing Accuracy: 1-2* (It did not feature lobe switching)
Range Accuracy: 100-200 meters
Range: up to 30km (33,000 yards) depending on mounting height and target ship size.
Indication: J-scope

Tests were conducted on the destroyer Legionaire, and it was confirmed that it could attain the same Approx. detection ranges as a 1st generation Seetakt for destroyers (FuMO21).

One set was installed on Littorio in March 1942, Vittorio and Roma did not receive a set each until the summer of 1943. There were only 12 sets built during the war. As far as I know it was not intergrated into the firecontrol systems...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3409&hilit=Gufo+radar

[paulcadogan]

I would have to dig out some books to narrow down what Rodney and Nelson had at that time.

From what I have found, Rodney had Type 284, 279 and 281 radars fitted in August 1941 at Boston Navy Yard (the refit she was on her way to when diverted to hunt for Bismarck in May).

Nelson did not have hers fitted until December so was radarless during Halberd.

[paul.mercer]

I was basing the senario on all five Italian Battleships being available (although three were apparently quite old)

The old Italian battleships were thoroughly modernized and reconstructed during the 30's under the direction of Chief Construction Engineer Pugliese. They utilized the Italian de-capping protection concepts and the Pugliese torpedo defense system (although the older ships were too small to realize the full potential of the Pugliese System). They had the same modern firecontrol systems as the Littorio class. The main battery guns were up bored to 320mm with a range of 28,600 meters, with 4.7" secondary battery in twin turrets in Cavour and Cesare, and 5.3" secondaries in triple turrets on Duillio and Andrea Doria. Speed was 28 knots.

By autum 41 the RN will have an advantage with radar. POW had nine seperate radar sets by this time, although I would have to dig out some books to narrow down what Rodney and Nelson had at that time. The Type 284 gunnery radar had a max range to a battleship of about 23,000 meters at that time. It was not blind fire capable at that time.

The Italians would have been radarless until March 42 if I recall correctly. The old RM BB's available during autum 41 would be Cesare, Duillio, and Doria.

Littorio and VV were formidable battleships by the standards of 1941. The 381mm/50 guns were very powerful. They were more powerful than R&N's 16" guns and North Carolina's 16" too.

Thanks for that Dave, did I not read somewhwre on another thread that the Italian ships had trouble with dispersion of their shots?
Also, would the Italian fleet actually want to fight if they knew what they were up against?

[Thorsten Wahl]

Dave do you have the distance dimension and thicknesses of fore plate and main armor of Littorio class available? thx

[Rick Rather]

Also, would the Italian fleet actually want to fight if they knew what they were up against?

*sigh*

<face-palm until the urge to be snarky subsides>

OK, it is really difficult to have a hypothetical naval scenario (the name of this section) when you decide in advance that one or both sides are not going to fight. The whole concept of hypothetical scenarios (and the fundamental basis of the entire wargaming industry) rests on the idea that the forces DO fight. Then we all have fun (and possibly a few beers, if you're like my group) studying/arguing the constants, the variables, and coming up with possible (and possibly plausible) outcomes.

All of this is lost if you simply argue (no matter how accurately ) that the battle wouldn't have happened.

Yech. That was snarky. Sorry. I should have face-palmed longer, but I've got to get back to work.

[paul.mercer]

Also, would the Italian fleet actually want to fight if they knew what they were up against?

*sigh*

<face-palm until the urge to be snarky subsides>

OK, it is really difficult to have a hypothetical naval scenario (the name of this section) when you decide in advance that one or both sides are not going to fight. The whole concept of hypothetical scenarios (and the fundamental basis of the entire wargaming industry) rests on the idea that the forces DO fight. Then we all have fun (and possibly a few beers, if you're like my group) studying/arguing the constants, the variables, and coming up with possible (and possibly plausible) outcomes.

All of this is lost if you simply argue (no matter how accurately ) that the battle wouldn't have happened.




Yech. That was snarky. Sorry. I should have face-palmed longer, but I've got to get back to work.

OK Rick, point taken, let us get back to the original question and assume that all ships are fully operational when battle commences and that Nelson and Rodney are using PoW's radar and fall of shot for ranging purposes, we have three British ships plus a carrier and assorted escorts against five Italian ships plus escorts - who is going to win, assuming neither side runs away?

[Rick Rather]

...assume that all ships are fully operational when battle commences and that Nelson and Rodney are using PoW's radar and fall of shot for ranging purposes...

My first thought when I read that, I wondered if communications of the day allowed it, and if so, was it standard doctrine? Then I remembered the USN's "range clocks" from the 20's & 30's. Was this a higher-tech RN version of a similar concept?

we have three British ships plus a carrier and assorted escorts against five Italian ships plus escorts - who is going to win, assuming neither side runs away?

I love asymetric match-ups! This one looks like a meeting of a strong force of 1930's doctrine & technology versus a smaller force with 1940's doctrine & tech, but complicated by 1920's slow battleships w/ really big guns and freakin' biplanes (but they carry torpedoes... but they're slow... but they're ship-killers... but not proven against escorted ships at sea... and so on).

Earlier I was wondering how many torpedoes Ark Royal had available (and thus how many attacks can she launch). Now I'm wondering if losses to AA would attrit the airgroup faster than the magazine is depleted? I suppose the crux of the matter is, will the Swordfishes even the odds for the BBs before they are reduced to ineffectiveness through losses or ammo depletion?

[paulcadogan]

Here's how I see it unfolding:

First - the role of Ark Royal would be very limited in such a fleet action since, as with most British carriers early in the war, her aircraft complement was less than adequate for the job. In the actual event she was able to put up just 12 Swordfish and 4 Fulmars to go after the Italian big ships. They would be hard pressed to succeed against a big Italian squadron, though they would certainly try.

I would see the Italians dividing their forces - the battleships tasked with drawing off the British BB's, while the cruisers would go after the convoy, though they would have to break through the British cruisers first. In both events, the Italians would have the advantage - 2 extra battleships and 3 heavy cruisers to none on the British side.

The battleship action, the Italians would be able to choose how they fought it as Nelson and Rodney did not have the speed to compete. But since they were defending the convoy, they would just have to position themselves and fight it out. The outcome would be dependent as usual on who scores the most telling hits first - but we have 18 powerful 15-inch guns (yes they may have had spread issues, but that doesn't preclude hitting), plus 30 12.6-inch, vs. 18 16-inch and 10 14-inch. Radar ranging by PoW and Rodney might have been helpful, and we know from the DS that PoW was capable of close spreads (Schneider: "Enemy salvoes well grouped.", plus 3 straddles, 3 hits). Once she got on target, one would expect hits, but how would her quad turrets hold up this time? How would Nelson and Rodney's 16-inch? (Rodney had problems with 3 of her guns during the Bismarck battle). But still...the British position is unenviable...

For the cruisers, that could have been a humdinger with 5 vs. 5, though the Italians have 3 heavies (24 8-inch), plus the 2 lights (18 6-inch). Once they were in range though, the higher rate of fire from the British 6-inch (36) and 5.25-inch (20) might be telling.

Maybe a better scenario might be for the Italians to draw off the British battleships with 3 of theirs (Littorio, VV and G. Cesare) while the other two went with the cruisers to get at the convoy.

And, of course, destroyers on both sides would be tangling as well.

But despite our hypothetical....the reality is that with the moral ascendancy that the RN had gained over the RM - from their many actions and skirmishes, chances are that once the British started hitting, the Italians would start to think twice...

I now bow to our our tech gurus who can analyse the shell vs. armour scheme dynamic!

[Dave Saxton]

Dave do you have the distance dimension and thicknesses of fore plate and main armor of Littorio class available? thx

I have a 70mm homogenous de-capping plate, over a 280 mm face hardened main plate. I'm not sure of the interspace distance but as I recall it was less than a shell length and filled with concrete to prevent interspace flooding. The array was sloped 11*.