Spain allies with Axis, takes Gibraltar, seals off Mediter

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peter
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Spain allies with Axis, takes Gibraltar, seals off Mediter

Post by peter »

Spain has a 3 1/2 million man veteran army. Sells its steel to axis instead of England. Captures gibraltar in 1 week. helps occupy France and North Africa , mediterranean is an axis lake, Suez falls, India falls, Western and Eastern Axis armies and navies link up.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Don´t think that just taking Gibraltar would seal the Mediterranean. You need a powerful fleet there for that (would be the Italian fleet?).
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Post by Gerard Heimann »

Powerful in theory, but ineffectively commanded.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Gibraltar by itself is a valuable asset, that´s why the British keep it under their control. But, yes, you need quite a fleet to exploit the gain.
Being this hypothetical, then, is feasible for the Axis if properly planned and executed in complete coordination between Germans, Italians and the Spanish, and would have made the things worse for the British in 1940-1941. But it would change the tide of the war? :think:
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Suppose that the Italian fleet maintains the Mediterranean free of English shipping, Egypt would still be resupplied thru the Red Sea via Good Hoop Cape. And that wouldn´t mean that India would be lost either.
Moreover, Germany would still have to send a powerful army to North Africa, which means in turn not attacking Russia. So it takes us to the classical conclusion, if Hitler hadn´t entered in war with Russia, WWII would have been far different.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

But no Malta. That little island was a nightmare to the Axis. If the British can´t supply it then the campaing in North Africa would have been completly different.
peter
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Spain allies with axis

Post by peter »

The guns on top of Gibratar could sink any surface ship entering the Mediterranean. The axis would not need to use much resources to control or defend it. English resupply of Egypt around the tip of Africa would have been vunerable and impractical.
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Re: Spain allies with axis

Post by Bgile »

peter wrote:The guns on top of Gibratar could sink any surface ship entering the Mediterranean. The axis would not need to use much resources to control or defend it. English resupply of Egypt around the tip of Africa would have been vunerable and impractical.
Wouldn't Gibraltar be very hard to take? It might take a very long seige. In the mean time, the Brits could be expected to wreak havoc along the Spanish coast and support the Basques big time.

Could the guns sink several ships running through at the same time? I doubt it. How many guns were there, of what calibre? Even one ship might make it through if it ran at high speed on the south side of the strait and changed course a lot.

The other point I want to make is if the Brits thought they were going to lose the fight, they would have completely sabotaged those guns, probably to the point where they could never be rebuilt. In time, they could be replaced of course.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Don´t know the caliber of the guns of Gibraltar but there is no antecedent of shore batteries preventing ships from passing thru a strait, moreover no shore batteries in history survived a truly decided enemy of putting them out of action.
peter
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Spain allies with axis

Post by peter »

After Dunkirk and the fall of France, England had to worry about a cross channel invasion. Its very survival was in doubt. Spain had a battlehardened army of over 3 million. The Gibraltar of 1940 would not have lasted very long against the weapons of that time as it had 150 years earlier. England would have sued for peace.
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Javier L.
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Post by Javier L. »

Hello all,

First of all, Spain didn't have 3 million veteran army. 3 million men with age to fight (18-65) maybe, but that is different.

Second, Franco had no desires to get involved in the war. Spain had nothing to gain at all from that war. There is Gibraltar that is very useful for the UK, but for Spain with hundreds of kilometers of Mediterranean and Atlantic coastline is just a worthless rock militarily and economically speaking. For the Spanish people Gibraltar is only a matter national prestige but nothing else. There is nothing of value there.

But OK let's say Hitler convinces Franco in Hendaya conference Oct. 1940, Spain joins the war with Axis and Gibraltar taken in Jan. 1941 (there was already a plan for that Operation Felix). Gibraltar airfield and harbor facilities could be destroyed in 48 hours with heavy air and artillery bombardment, and later an infantry assault clear resistance pockets in a week or so. Force "H" must then relocate to Scapa Flow or Alexandria.

The Strait of Gibraltar could be blocked. A few shore batteries shipped from Germany could be placed in Tarifa instead and be even more effective than in Gibraltar. A partial replacement of the Italian Navy to Spanish Mediterranean ports would help too. Finally the ports of Northern Spain, Vigo, Ferrol, etc. could be used by German U-boats and surface raiders Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Bismarck, etc.

I think Rommel could take Suez in spring 1942 but later the Allies could land in Portugal. :think: :think:
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

I think Rommel could take Suez in spring 1942 but later the Allies could land in Portugal.
I asume that as Germany took Denmark and Norway just to prevent allied landings, Spain would have to occupy Portugal.
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Javier L.
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Post by Javier L. »

Yes, I tried to say the Allies land in Portugal even if it is occupied by the Axis or not. That would move the historical Tunisian-Italian campaigns to the Iberian Peninsula in 1943-1944. Of course the British would occupy the Portuguese Azores first. Could Germany fight this war in 2 fronts Spain-Russia? Napoleon failed to do so but of course the Spaniards were not friendly back then.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

With that scenario we will have a bloodier and longer war. Imagine the allies landing at Portugal as a preliminary to Normandy and the Spanish waiting for them. Franco wasn´t Hitler who consult his astrologers to move his Panzer Divisions, that´s why he died still in power: Massacre!
God forbids!
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Javier L.
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Post by Javier L. »

I agree Franco was no fool like Hitler or Mussolini, but the problem is that Spain hadn't enough planes, tanks, etc to defend itself from an attack by the Allies. Good soldiers alone can't do anything. Franco would need German-Italian assistance.
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