Could an H Class battleship survive?

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Mostlyharmless
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Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by Mostlyharmless » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:41 pm

On the 24th October 1944, the battleship Musashi suffered heavy air attacks at the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea http://www.combinedfleet.com/musashi.htm. If one of the battleships to the H-39 design had been completed by Germany and had been present at that battle, would she (he for you Germans) have survived exactly the same hits that sank Musashi. At 266 metres, an H-39 Class ship had the same overall length as a Yamato Class, making it easier to place the hits, but would have displaced 62,600 tons at full load compared to Yamato's 71,659 tons. The H-39's advantage would have been that she had a much larger fraction of the hull's length protected and probably a much better torpedo defence system. However, I am scared of the torpedoes mounted in the H-39 design's bow, we could perhaps imagine them being removed, and worried about multiple hits opening a large off centre engine room.

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by Dave Saxton » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:01 pm

No, in my opinion no warship could have survived. Not the H-class. Not the Montana class. The Yamato class TDS was probably inferior (no liquid load and a ridgid lower belt with a suspect joint) to the Montana class or the German system, but still; torpedoes are indeed ship killers. Especially multiple torpedo hits.

The Scharnhorst was sunk by at least 11 torpedo hits (these were the large ship launched, not smaller aircraft released torpedoes) and we now know that it was literally ripped apart by them.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by RF » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:10 pm

Given the scale of the attack and no increased support from escort vessels then whatever Axis ship you use the end result will be the same.
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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by RF » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:13 pm

Dave Saxton wrote:
The Scharnhorst was sunk by at least 11 torpedo hits (these were the large ship launched, not smaller aircraft released torpedoes) and we now know that it was literally ripped apart by them.
I believe the Scharnhorst classe were designed such that the KM expected them to float with up to 13 torpedo hits. In reality 11 such hits did the job, although of course there was further collateral damage from shell hits from a variety of calibre's.
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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by Steve Crandell » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:13 pm

RF wrote:
Dave Saxton wrote:
The Scharnhorst was sunk by at least 11 torpedo hits (these were the large ship launched, not smaller aircraft released torpedoes) and we now know that it was literally ripped apart by them.
I believe the Scharnhorst classe were designed such that the KM expected them to float with up to 13 torpedo hits. In reality 11 such hits did the job, although of course there was further collateral damage from shell hits from a variety of calibre's.
Where did you learn that? On the face of it, it seems preposterous. I don't think anyone expected a ship to survive that many torpedo hits. For one thing, it wouldn't be terribly surprising for one to hit where another already had made a hole.

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by RF » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:06 am

Not necessarily preposterous. It took some nineteen hits plus bomb hits to sink the Musashi.

With the arrangement of compartmentation and counter flooding ability the KM claim isn't that far fetched and in reality it took eleven torpedoes plus 14 inch shell hits to achieve destruction. See Richard Garrett's book Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for more info.
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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by alecsandros » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:12 am

RF wrote:Not necessarily preposterous. It took some nineteen hits plus bomb hits to sink the Musashi.

With the arrangement of compartmentation and counter flooding ability the KM claim isn't that far fetched and in reality it took eleven torpedoes plus 14 inch shell hits to achieve destruction. See Richard Garrett's book Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for more info.
.. And Scharnhorst was 50% of the dsplacement of a H-class.

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by Steve Crandell » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:06 pm

RF wrote:Not necessarily preposterous. It took some nineteen hits plus bomb hits to sink the Musashi.

With the arrangement of compartmentation and counter flooding ability the KM claim isn't that far fetched and in reality it took eleven torpedoes plus 14 inch shell hits to achieve destruction. See Richard Garrett's book Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for more info.
There is no proof of that. Musashi was hit by about 19 torpedoes. That doesn't mean it would take 19 torpedoes to sink Musashi. The aircraft are not going to stop attacking as long as the ship is still a target, even if it is in sinking condition, which in any case would be unknown to the attackers.

The post war investigators suggested that it would take four topedoes on the same side of the ship to sink a Yamato class battleship.

I can't recall any instance where a battleships survived more than a very few hits and survived. Can you?

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by alecsandros » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:33 pm

Steve Crandell wrote:
RF wrote:Not necessarily preposterous. It took some nineteen hits plus bomb hits to sink the Musashi.

With the arrangement of compartmentation and counter flooding ability the KM claim isn't that far fetched and in reality it took eleven torpedoes plus 14 inch shell hits to achieve destruction. See Richard Garrett's book Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for more info.
There is no proof of that. Musashi was hit by about 19 torpedoes. That doesn't mean it would take 19 torpedoes to sink Musashi. The aircraft are not going to stop attacking as long as the ship is still a target, even if it is in sinking condition, which in any case would be unknown to the attackers.

The post war investigators suggested that it would take four topedoes on the same side of the ship to sink a Yamato class battleship.

I can't recall any instance where a battleships survived more than a very few hits and survived. Can you?
... IIRC, Garzke and Dulin mention at least 9 or 10 torpedoes that hit Musashi, and the ship was still doing ~ 12kts. She was damaged, but not mortally. Only several hours later, when the final waves of attack came, and 8 or 9 more torpedo hits were scored, did the sailors try to take her in shallower waters hoping to settle her on the bottom - but they couldn't get there, and the ship sank.

more info here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/musashi.htm

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by Steve Crandell » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:14 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Steve Crandell wrote:
RF wrote:Not necessarily preposterous. It took some nineteen hits plus bomb hits to sink the Musashi.

With the arrangement of compartmentation and counter flooding ability the KM claim isn't that far fetched and in reality it took eleven torpedoes plus 14 inch shell hits to achieve destruction. See Richard Garrett's book Scharnhorst and Gneisenau for more info.
There is no proof of that. Musashi was hit by about 19 torpedoes. That doesn't mean it would take 19 torpedoes to sink Musashi. The aircraft are not going to stop attacking as long as the ship is still a target, even if it is in sinking condition, which in any case would be unknown to the attackers.

The post war investigators suggested that it would take four topedoes on the same side of the ship to sink a Yamato class battleship.

I can't recall any instance where a battleships survived more than a very few hits and survived. Can you?
... IIRC, Garzke and Dulin mention at least 9 or 10 torpedoes that hit Musashi, and the ship was still doing ~ 12kts. She was damaged, but not mortally. Only several hours later, when the final waves of attack came, and 8 or 9 more torpedo hits were scored, did the sailors try to take her in shallower waters hoping to settle her on the bottom - but they couldn't get there, and the ship sank.

more info here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/musashi.htm
How do you know the first hits would not have caused her to sink?

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by alecsandros » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:30 pm

Steve Crandell wrote:
How do you know the first hits would not have caused her to sink?
... I don't.
But the messages they transmitted showed the ship was still good to sail. If that was the case or not... we don't know.

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by Steve Crandell » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:35 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Steve Crandell wrote:
How do you know the first hits would not have caused her to sink?
... I don't.
But the messages they transmitted showed the ship was still good to sail. If that was the case or not... we don't know.
One thing that enabled her to absorb more damage than one might expect is that there were a large number of hits forward and some of them probably didn't cause much additional flooding, and also hits were distributed on both sides of the ship over an extended period of time, allowing damage control efforts to take place before the next attacks.

Considering the thickness of her MAD, I'm really surprised how much damage there was to spaces below it from bombs.

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by alecsandros » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:29 pm

Exactly... She lost some machinery power to dive bombing. It must have been hell on that ship...

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by Steve Crandell » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:14 pm

alecsandros wrote:Exactly... She lost some machinery power to dive bombing. It must have been hell on that ship...
Yes, the casualties among the AA crews must have been terrible, but they even mentioned an entire DC section being wiped out. That is especially bad on an IJN ship, where only DC specialists help with DC.

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Re: Could an H Class battleship survive?

Post by alecsandros » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:59 am

Steve Crandell wrote:
alecsandros wrote:Exactly... She lost some machinery power to dive bombing. It must have been hell on that ship...
Yes, the casualties among the AA crews must have been terrible, but they even mentioned an entire DC section being wiped out. That is especially bad on an IJN ship, where only DC specialists help with DC.
Could it be that the 1000pds bombs launched against her had more perforating power than earlier versions ? 200mm of solid homogenous armor is a tremendous obstacle, not mentioning the other thinner decks and structures.

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