KGV sorties with POW

[slaterat]

The Bismarck going against 2 KGVs in company is a much more serious threat then the Hood and the PoW. Why, because the most serious error made by the RN in the battle of DS isnt going to happen, that being the Hood opening fire on the wrong ship. The reason the PoW was able to correctly identify the targets was because her spotters were located higher than those in the Hood and they had optics that were larger, more powerful and modern than those on the Hood. Another factor would also be that the need to close the range quickley because of the Hoods poor deck armour would be eliminated, meaning that opening up the aft arcs could of happened sooner. These factors spell big trouble for the Bismarck. The notion that a KGV is somehow more vulnerable to 8 inch gunfire than other capital ships is false. Her con tower,turtle deck over the steering gear and fore and aft extensions of the main belt are all 4-5 inches thick. The side armour of the KGV is 7.2 meters in width very similar to the Bismarcks combined width of the main armour belt plus the upper belt. The KGVs belt is situated lower to provide better protection against diving shells of all calibers.

Slaterat

[alecsandros]

......

The reason the PoW was able to correctly identify the targets was because her spotters were located higher than those in the Hood and they had optics that were larger, more powerful and modern than those on the Hood. Another factor would also be that the need to close the range quickley because of the Hoods poor deck armour would be eliminated, meaning that opening up the aft arcs could of happened sooner. These factors spell big trouble for the Bismarck. The notion that a KGV is somehow more vulnerable to 8 inch gunfire than other capital ships is false. Her con tower,turtle deck over the steering gear and fore and aft extensions of the main belt are all 4-5 inches thick.

Slaterat

No. Literally all of the propositions above contain at least one false statement.

[paul.mercer]

[quote="alecsandros"]... Prince of Wales withdrew after receiving 7 hits in 2 minutes, while not scoring a single hit in return (during those 2 minutes - she only scored while she was firing un-opposed). Her radar was not functioning, her crew was not well prepared.
They were however, BETTER prepared then Bismarck's crew. Prince of Wales started gunnery practice on 15 Jan 1941, 5 months before Rheinubung. Bismarck performed 2 weeks of full gunnery practice in March 1941, and several more days afterwards whenever they could find the time.

KGV and PRince of Wales carried insufficient armor above the waterline to protect them from Bismarck AND Prinz Eugens gunfire. Their command positions and upper decks were completely vulnerable to 380 and 203mm gunfire at any conceivable battle ranges.

The turret and gun jamings were the norm in May 1941 - Prince of Wales suffered several break downs. KGV suffered several break downs as well during Bismarck's final battle, culminating in 30 minutes when she had 5 main guns operational.

===

Thanks for your reply, I was assuming that the main armament of both RN ships to be fully operational and would therefore be bombarding Bismarck with a rain of shells and that some at least would penetrate her armour.

[alecsandros]

Thanks for your reply, I was assuming that the main armament of both RN ships to be fully operational and would therefore be bombarding Bismarck with a rain of shells and that some at least would penetrate her armour.

... The 14"/L45 was a powerfull gun.

However, as I said above, in the initial phase, the KGV/PoW would have 12 guns available, and not 20.

Then, in May 1941 at least, the quad turrets were prone to failures.

===

With all 20 guns brought to bear, and all of them functioning correctly, things would be very very hard for the Bismarck.

[Byron Angel]

... Prince of Wales withdrew after receiving 7 hits in 2 minutes, while not scoring a single hit in return (during those 2 minutes - she only scored while she was firing un-opposed). Her radar was not functioning, her crew was not well prepared.
They were however, BETTER prepared then Bismarck's crew. Prince of Wales started gunnery practice on 15 Jan 1941, 5 months before Rheinubung. Bismarck performed 2 weeks of full gunnery practice in March 1941, and several more days afterwards whenever they could find the time.

..... This is untrue. The official service history of HMS Prince of Wales from the time of her official commissioning in January 1941 until the commencement of Operation Rheinubung in May 1941 follows. Notes and comments inserted as >>>>>.

1941

January

19th - Commissioned, incomplete, and with only half her crew, for trials. CO Captain Louis Henry Keppel Hamilton RN.

(The Luftwaffe raids were continuing on Liverpool so the decision was taken to move the PRINCE OF WALES to Rosyth to complete her fitting out. When she sailed from Birkenhead she had embarked workers from Cammell Laird and Vickers Armstrong who were working on her main armament turrets)

28th - At 1200 hours the PRINCE OF WALES sailed from the Mersey. In Liverpool Bay she was joined by the light cruiser CURACOA and the destroyer HIGHLANDER and course was set northerly.
En route she carried out gun trials.

29th - At 1300 hours off Cape Wrath the PRINCE OF WALES, CURACOA and HIGHLANDER were joined by the light cruiser NIGERIA and destroyers INGLEFIELD, MAORI and NIZAM joined from Scapa Flow.
Gun trials were carried out off Cape Wrath.

30th - At 1445 the PRINCE OF WALES, CURACOA, NIGERIA and destroyers INGLEFIELD, MAORI, NIZAM and HIGHLANDER arrived off Rosyth.
The PRINCE OF WALES entered ROSYTH for completion of fitting out.


>>>>> Gun trials do not = gunnery practice. They are tests to confirm the proper mechanical operation of the machinery and mechanical devices associated with the armament of the ship.


February

1st to 28th - Fitting-out at Rosyth.
(Note: Fit of radar Type 281 for aircraft warning and limited fire-control use, together with radar Type 284 for fire-control of forward main armament, and four Type 285 for fire-control of 5.25in armament was completed)

15th - The PRINCE OF WALES new CO Captain John Catterall Leach MVO RN took command.


March

1st to 23rd - Fitting-out at Rosyth

24th - The PRINCE OF WALES, with workers from Cammell Laird and Vickers Armstrong still embarked, escorted by destroyers QUANTOCK, LIDDESDALE and AVON VALE sailed from Rosyth for Scapa.

25th - The PRINCE OF WALES, QUANTOCK, LIDDESDALE and AVON VALE arrived at Scapa.

26th - The PRINCE OF WALES commenced working up exercisers.

31st - The PRINCE OF WALES was officially classified as completed. The 'completion' was achieved by waiving various vital tests and before her armament was fully operational.

(The Admiralty was desperate to have the PRINCE OF WALES operational to join the KING GEORGE V as a credible deterrent against the BISMARCK and TIRPITZ. The PRINCE OF WALES was late completing; the problem had started with the bomb damage whilst in the fitting out basin. The repairs had taken priority over various tests and because of Admiralty pressure many important tests were not carried out; including watertight compartment air tests, tests on fuel oil systems, full power trials et al. Also the quadruple 14in turrets were not fully operational which why Vickers Armstrong staff were still embarked)


>>>>> Prince of Wales spent from 1 February to 24 March pierside at Rosyth to complete fitting out. Working up exercises did not start until 26 March, when Prince of Wales arrived at Scapa Flow. Nine weeks after her official commissioning, a hundred or more civilian workers and technicians were still aboard trying to de-bug main battery turrets.


April

1st to 26th - The PRINCE OF WALES was at Scapa Flow carrying out working up exercises. Gunnery exercises were severely curtailed due to the continuing problems with the quadruple 14in turrets. The work up included checking radar performance and the calibration of air warning and fire control equipment.

27th - It was on this day that the last of her three turrets was accepted from Vickers Armstrong and practice drills with all her armament could commence.

(The PRINCE OF WALES went to sea with HACS IVGB, with full radar ranging systems, and no less than nine AA fire control radars: four Type 285 Radars, one on each High Angle Director Tower and four Type 282 Radars, one on each Mk IV pom-pom director, and a long range Type 281 Radar which also had precision ranging panels for aerial and surface targets. This placed the PRINCE OF WALES in the forefront of naval HA AA fire control systems at the time)


>>>>> The official working up period, which officially commenced on 26 March and presumably lasted through the end of April, was marred by the fact that "gunnery exercises were severely curtailed due to the continuing problems with the quadruple turrets".


May

8th - Carried out Full Power Trials.

21st - Ship reported to CinC Home Fleet as ready for Fleet service.

(The PRINCE OF WALES had had less than two months working up, which was completely inadequate considering all the new systems and the fact that 80% of her crew were Hostilities Only and had never been on a ship before. Further she still had major problems with her main armament and 100 Vickers Armstrong staff were embarked attempting to fix the problems. The BISMARCK in contrast had worked up over a period of five months and was fully operational and efficient)

22nd - At 0100 hours the battlecruiser HOOD (Flag Vice Admiral Lancelot E Holland CinC BCS) and the PRINCE OF WALES escorted by the destroyers ELECTRA, ACHATES, ANTELOPE, ANTHONY, ECHO and ICARUS departed Scapa Flow to cover the cruiser patrol in the Denmark Strait.


>>>>> To say that Prince of Wales had somewhat less than two months to work up is probably fair. To say that she and her crew were better prepared than Bismarck is not fair to say.


B

[alecsandros]

..as has been discussed several MoORE tines, the Bismarck did gun trials 2 weeks + whenever Lindemann found some time duting April. Her avks trials were cut in half by the need to equip for Rheinubung, after being repeatedly delayed for somw 3 months.
Read the avks report and bismarcks log and see for youeself.

[Byron Angel]

..as has been discussed several MoORE tines, the Bismarck did gun trials 2 weeks + whenever Lindemann found some time duting April. Her avks trials were cut in half by the need to equip for Rheinubung, after being repeatedly delayed for somw 3 months.
Read the avks report and bismarcks log and see for youeself.

..... I have read the AVKS report. Have you read PoW's service history? Also see Paddon (RDF Officer aboard PoW at time of her commissioning): "Our workups and test exercises were fairly extensive but we had had only one main armament shoot, ..." Why do you suggest that PoW was working up and doing gunnery exercises from January 1941, when this was clearly not the case?

I trust you are aware that the AVKS mission was to carry out technical gun trials (see my earlier remarks on gun trials as opposed to gunnery exercises). The key commentary in the AVKS report can be found on page 9 of Rudofsky's translation under the introductory remarks -

quote .....

2. Tests at Sea

It was feasible to begin the tests at sea on 19.3.41. At the start of the tests, a duration until 11.4 was anticipated. Due to a new order from the OKM, which was sent only to the ship's command [not to the AVKS!], the AVKS time, however, had to be cut short and to end on 2.4.

Under these complicated conditions, a considerable portion of the intended tests had to be abruptly dropped. More or less, only the conduct of those firing exercises remained intact that had immediate relevance for the training of the ship and the establishment of the physical readiness of the artillery installations.

..... unquote.

In other words, complete priority was given to gunnery exercises and it was the technical gun trials testing that were curtailed/cancelled. Bismarck's working up and training was certainly not lavish and comprehensive, but the record suggests that ship and crew did actually carry out a reasonable period of gunnery exercises with a serviceable main battery armament.

I'm not trying to stick this up your nose, Alecs. I'm just pointing out that care really must be taken to read carefully what is actually on the page and not what one expects to see or wants to see there.

B

[alecsandros]

I'm not trying to stick this up your nose, Alecs. I'm just trying to point out that care must betaken to read carefully what is actually on the page and not what one expects to see or wants to see there.

B

Byron,
Prince of Wales performed gunnery exercises in 15 January.

The total firing time for PRince of Wales (2 months total days of firing according to your calculation) was LARGER than that of Bismarck, as can be read in her log and avks report (about 1 month total days of firing at best - including the Nov 1940 firings off Gotenfagen).
Moreover, according to survivor debriefings, during AVKS the Bismarck fire a single full salvo from her main battery.

PRince of Wales had MORE gunnery training time than the Bismarck, PERIOD.

P.S.
That that time was done with faulty guns/turrets... is another problem. Remember the Bismarck had trouble with her firing systems, though presumably not affecting her arillery as serious as those of the Prince.

[Byron Angel]

Byron,
Prince of Wales performed gunnery exercises in 15 January.

The total firing time for PRince of Wales (2 months total days of firing according to your calculation) was LARGER than that of Bismarck, as can be read in her log and avks report (about 1 month total days of firing at best - including the Nov 1940 firings off Gotenfagen).
Moreover, according to survivor debriefings, during AVKS the Bismarck fire a single full salvo from her main battery.

PRince of Wales had MORE gunnery training time than the Bismarck, PERIOD.

..... Come on, Alecs. Please be serious.

[ 1 ] January 15th 1941 gunnery exercises???? The ship was not even commissioned; PoW was only commissioned on 19 Jan with half a crew aboard and still faced with another two months after that to complete fitting out. She did not even receive her gunnery radars until sometime in February.

[ 2 ] "Moreover, according to survivor debriefings, during AVKS the Bismarck fire a single full salvo from her main battery." What's your point? SMS Lutzow only fired a single main battery broadside at Jutland. Does that disqualify all the rest of her shooting in that battle?

[ 3 ] Two months total firing time for PoW???? Once again, you are reading what you want to see instead of what is actually printed. I said she had perhaps two month to WORK UP ship and crew; there is a very great deal more to working up a brand new ship. GUN TRIALS are not GUNNERY EXERCISES. PoW's was unable to attempt actual gunnery practice until she reached Scapa on 26 Mar. Even then her service history explicitly states that she was only able to commence full main battery gunnery practice on 27 Apr.
> PoW service history for 1-26 April: "The PRINCE OF WALES was at Scapa Flow carrying out working up exercises. Gunnery exercises were severely curtailed due to the continuing problems with the quadruple 14in turrets. The work up included checking radar performance and the calibration of air warning and fire control equipment.""
> PoW service history for 27 Apr: 27th - "It was on this day that the last of her three turrets was accepted from Vickers Armstrong and practice drills with all her armament could commence."
> Paddon: one main armament shoot while at Scapa.

Your argument that PoW's crew was somehow "better prepared" than that of Bismarck makes no sense. It flies in the face of the simple unambiguous historical record. Ignoring evidence does not make it go away.

B

[alecsandros]

Byron,
let's keep it simple.

How many rounds did Prince of Wales shot before May 24th 1941, vs how many rounds did Bismarck shot ?

Remember, Bismarck performed the AVKS trials for 2 weeks (and not 4 as scheduled). The AVKS was NOT done only for main armament firings, but also for other aspects of ship's combat capabilities. If you read the report, you know.

Outside AVKS, we know the Bismarck practiced her gunnery in Nov 1940, and then sporadically in April 1941. And that's it.
AFTER AVKS, Lindemann wrote that the crew "is not fully battle ready", and before Rheinubung "the state of preparedness compares favorably with that which can be achieved in the good years of peace time".

Debriefed survivors of the Bismarck said they DID NOT have enough practice, especialy with the AA guns, but also with the main artillery. They complained a single full-salvo was fired (during AVKS !), and that subsequent target practice was done with sub-caliber rounds.

Read the reports !
http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/survivor-reports.pdf

===
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... _Wales.htm

As can be easily read, Prince of Wales performed gun drills WHENEVER possible, CULMINATING with the 7 weeks practice shoots in Scapa Flow.

Sorry, but I've had enough of the "unprepared crew of the Prince of Wales rushed into battle against the excellently trained crew of the Bismarck."

Yes, the ship was comissioned 5 months before the battle, while the Bismarck 9 months before. However, the Prince did not ran aground, was not blocked in port by ice of the Kiel canal, and was not forced to cut her training due to the need to prepare for Rheinubung. You are conveniently ignoring that Bismarck DID NOT perform ANY SORT of exercises for at least HALF of her comissioning time, that her own captain DID NOT considered the crew fully battle ready, and that the crew considered it DID NOT receive enough training !

And, indeed, ignoring hystorical evidence won't make it go away

[Byron Angel]

One day, Alecs, you will finally confront your foolish emotional biases. It will be a liberating moment. I know; it was for me.

B

[northcape]

===
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... _Wales.htm

As can be easily read, Prince of Wales performed gun drills WHENEVER possible, CULMINATING with the 7 weeks practice shoots in Scapa Flow.

Can you please pinpoint exactly in the above report where it is stated that 7 weeks practice shooting was performed in Scapa Flow? I can't find it there. Thanks!

[alecsandros]

One day, Alecs, you will finally confront your foolish emotional biases. It will be a liberating moment. I know; it was for me.

B

And in another day you will actualy read Bismarck's log and see what kind of troubles she had during her working up.