Force Z

[alecsandros]

Lundstrom gives us the complete data showing that only 2 of 17 aircraft returned:

That's far more detail then in "War in the Pacific". Thanks.

It was a horrible loss rate...

Does he give details on the CAP strength and composition ? On Wiki it says 15 F4F and SBDs were dispatched immediately to attack the first wave of 9 bombers.

He gives very good info on that, IIRC, and the CAP never had all F4Fs in the air while the SBD's only made one kill with only two making firing passes. You can read Lexington's action report here:

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/act ... e/1311/0/0

Thanks, it's a wonderfull description.

So 18 out of 20 planes lost by the Japanese forces. About 25 F4Fs and SBDs used for defense. Air-search Radar accurately sent fighters to intercept the enemy. The considerable AA power is credited with 2 planes shot down and 1 damaged and later destroyed by CAP.

[Steve Crandell]

Fighters were usually much better at shooting down enemy aircraft than flak was. The trick was to get them on the target, and sometimes that failed for various reasons.

[alecsandros]

Fighters were usually much better at shooting down enemy aircraft than flak was. The trick was to get them on the target, and sometimes that failed for various reasons.

Clearly...
In Lexingtons case, almost all the fighters concentrated on the first wave of bombers, while the second was intercepted by only 2 fightrs prior to the bombing run.

But 1 of those fighters shot down 5 Bettys

[alecsandros]

What woudl have happened to Indomitable:

"After the raid on Colombo by the Japanese aircraft carriers on 5 April, Hermes and Vampire were sent to Trincomalee to prepare for Operation Ironclad, the British invasion of Madagascar, and 814 Squadron was sent ashore. After advance warning of a Japanese air raid on 9 April 1942, they left Trincomalee and sailed south down the Ceylon coast before it arrived.[41] They were spotted off Batticaloa, however, by a Japanese reconnaissance plane from the battleship Haruna.[42] The British intercepted the spot report and ordered the ships to return to Trincomalee with the utmost dispatch and attempted to provide fighter cover for them.[43] The Japanese launched 85 Aichi D3A dive bombers, escorted by nine Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters, at the two ships. At least 32 attacked them and sank them in quick order despite the arrival of six Fairey Fulmar II fighters of No. 273 Squadron RAF. Another six Fulmars from 803 and 806 Squadrons arrived after Hermes had already sunk. The rest of the Japanese aircraft attacked other ships further north, sinking the RFA Athelstone of 5,571 gross register tonnage (GRT), her escort, the corvette Hollyhock, the oil tanker SS British Sergeant and the Norwegian ship SS Norviken of 2,924 GRT.[44]

Hermes sank with the loss of 307 men, including Captain Onslow. Vampire's captain and seven crewmen were also killed. Most of the survivors of the attack were picked up by the hospital ship Vita.[45] Japanese losses to all causes were four D3As lost and five more damaged, while two Fulmars were shot down"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hermes ... rld_War_II

[tameraire01]

Can I point out Hermes was an older ship where as Indomitable was newer with a larger air group and had A lot more armour than Hermes. Plus Indomitable,s air group was larger than her sisters with 48 aircraft so she could and would have more chance of surviving than Hermes did.

[dunmunro]

Yes, a sudden massed attack by dozens of carrier based dive bombers escorted by Zeros is not all comparable to several waves of unescorted twin engined aircraft, attacking over an hour and a half.

In any event, the only carriers afloat in 1941, that could have survived the attack that sank Hermes, were the RN's 4 armoured flight deck carriers, since the IJN 550lb bomb could not penetrate their flightdeck armour, unless dropped at such a high altitude that most would miss.

[tameraire01]

Which indomitable was part of. She was a modified Illustrious class CV, she was modified because the RN wanted to carry more aircraft.

[alecsandros]

Yes, a sudden massed attack by dozens of carrier based dive bombers escorted by Zeros is not all comparable to several waves of unescorted twin engined aircraft, attacking over an hour and a half.

In any event, the only carriers afloat in 1941, that could have survived the attack that sank Hermes, were the RN's 4 armoured flight deck carriers, since the IJN 550lb bomb could not penetrate their flightdeck armour, unless dropped at such a high altitude that most would miss.

no,

the "un-coordonated attack" on Force Z actualy contained about 6 waves, in progressive dimensions, with the bulk of the torpedo bombers (about 35 of them) attacking between 12:20 and 12:45.

@Tameraire
The total number of fighter aircraft on board Indomitable was 21: 12 Hurricanes and 9 Fulmars. Typical availability rate was 80%, so about 16-17 available to counter... 85 bombers out of which 51 torpedo bombers piloted by elite crews.

10 Japanese torpedo bombers planted 2 torpedoes in Yorktown despite 30+ Wildcats and huge AA concentration.

The torpedo was the key in the Pacific war, and IJN torpedo attacks were remarkably deadly.