A desicive battle WW2

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

A desicive battle WW2

Post by tameraire01 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:44 pm

The entire KM sortie into the north sea among the fleet is the pride of the KM Bismarck and her sister Tirpitz. The RN sortie in response to the KM sortieing among the home fleet is the flag ship KGV,POW and the pride of the RN HMS Hood. The Aircraft carriers HMS Glorious, Courageous and Victorious along with the heavy cruisers Norfolk and Suffolk and six Destroyers remain well out of the way into the wind so to launch her aircraft if needed.

What happens next do we see the biggest battle since Jutland?
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

paul.mercer
Senior Member
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by paul.mercer » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:27 pm

An interesting senario, perhaps the three heavy ships would co -ordinate their attack with the three carriers with the two battleships and one battlecruiser attacking in line on one side while the aircraft from the carriers attack with torpedoes from the other side and the cruisers and destroyers waiting for a chance with their guns and torpedoes. I think that the end result would be some rather battered RN heavy ships but two German Battleships sunk by torpedoes after being severely knocked about or possibly disabled by the heavy RN guns.

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by tameraire01 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:17 pm

Both sides would take a battering from land based aircraft. We could see a lot more damage but it depends on who can put more aircraft into the sky more quickly.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by Steve Crandell » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:15 pm

paul.mercer wrote:An interesting senario, perhaps the three heavy ships would co -ordinate their attack with the three carriers with the two battleships and one battlecruiser attacking in line on one side while the aircraft from the carriers attack with torpedoes from the other side and the cruisers and destroyers waiting for a chance with their guns and torpedoes. I think that the end result would be some rather battered RN heavy ships but two German Battleships sunk by torpedoes after being severely knocked about or possibly disabled by the heavy RN guns.
Did I see the reference to coordination? Did this somehow involve German ships and land based aircraft?

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by tameraire01 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:27 pm

It is possible for the RAF AND the Lufftewaffe to join the party.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by Dave Saxton » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:48 pm

That's Steve's point. And a very good one. Air power and technology fundmentally changed naval warfare compared to Jutland. The N Sea became a place to pass through at night or in bad weather-not a place to stay, nor a sea space to be controlled. It was not a place to fight major naval battles in. German destroyers/light forces and British destroyers/light forces operated with impunity in the North Sea -at night. By day light they were gone.

It was the same with the Americans and the Japanese in the Solomons. The decisive battle in the Pacific was the long drawn out campaign lasting more than year in the Solomons. They were a series of sharp clashs fought at night. Land based airpower made it that way. Where there was not land based air power there could be large carrier battles settled within days. But where there was land based airpower, carrier battles were inconclusive.

Because of technology and airpower, several relatively small night battles over a long period of time replaced the big decisive battle.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by tameraire01 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:09 pm

So a powder keg then. It would have the added effect of who will win the war in Europe and the Med.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4152
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by alecsandros » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:03 am

tameraire01 wrote:The entire KM sortie into the north sea among the fleet is the pride of the KM Bismarck and her sister Tirpitz. The RN sortie in response to the KM sortieing among the home fleet is the flag ship KGV,POW and the pride of the RN HMS Hood. The Aircraft carriers HMS Glorious, Courageous and Victorious along with the heavy cruisers Norfolk and Suffolk and six Destroyers remain well out of the way into the wind so to launch her aircraft if needed.

What happens next do we see the biggest battle since Jutland?
... Glorious was sunk on June 1940, before either TIrpitz or Bismarck were comissioned.
... Courageous was sunk even earlier, in 1939.

THis leaves only Victorious available.

User avatar
tameraire01
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 pm

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by tameraire01 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:04 pm

lutjens wanted to wait till Tirpitz was completed before operation rhine but raeder over ruled him. This is what could happen if Lutjens got his wish and Germany waited till 1941 before starting WW2.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by Dave Saxton » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:09 pm

Tirpitz wasn't ready until late 1941. Raeder, wanted to get Bismarck out there before something happened, such as the USA entering the war, that would have made an Atlantic raid untenable. Some, including myself, would say that Bismarck wasn't ready yet either.

If the war isn't going on previously, then the Germans will probably do as they did historically and station raiders and supply ships out in the Atlantic before war is declared and before a blockade can be put in place.

An historical situation almost happened in the North Sea, when Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were sent to raid the Northern Patrol or the blockade enforcers in late 1939. After attacking the merchant cruiser Rawalpindi the British and French mobilized a huge battle fleet to hunt down and destroy the two German battleships and prevent their return to Germany. There were five battleships, 10 cruisers, and 21 destroyers, and 4 submarines sortied. This came to nothing because the Germans waited in the Artic until bad weather closed in and ran the blockade in the Shetlands-Bergen passage in zero visibility conditions. The British and French fumbled around in the fog for three more days while the Twins were safely back in Wilhelmshaven.

If the Germans pre-stage pocket battleships and the four fast battleships in the Atlantic then the British and French will have to mobilize hunter groups against them.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4152
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by alecsandros » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:35 pm

tameraire01 wrote:lutjens wanted to wait till Tirpitz was completed before operation rhine but raeder over ruled him. This is what could happen if Lutjens got his wish and Germany waited till 1941 before starting WW2.
... Tirpitz was declared fully operational in Jan 1942.
It could have been used, probably, by the time of her Baltic deployment in Oct/Nov 1941, but not at 100% efficiency.

A hypothetical Nov 1941 sortie by Tirpitz/Bismarck in the Atlantic would be extremely bad for the British to handle, as the only available battleships fast enough to catch them would be... KGV and Renown and possibly Duke of York (as Prince of Wales and Repulse were sent to Singapore in late October). The available carriers would be ... HMS Furious (which AFAIK did not carry her own air group ) HMS Victorious and HMS Eagle.
(because Courageous, Glorious, Ark Royal, were sunk; Indomitable ran aground en route to Singapore; Hermes was in the Indian Ocean; HMS Illustrious and HMS Formidable were under repair in USA until December, then in other repairs in the British Isles until February 1942)

paul.mercer
Senior Member
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by paul.mercer » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:49 pm

alecsandros wrote:
tameraire01 wrote:The entire KM sortie into the north sea among the fleet is the pride of the KM Bismarck and her sister Tirpitz. The RN sortie in response to the KM sortieing among the home fleet is the flag ship KGV,POW and the pride of the RN HMS Hood. The Aircraft carriers HMS Glorious, Courageous and Victorious along with the heavy cruisers Norfolk and Suffolk and six Destroyers remain well out of the way into the wind so to launch her aircraft if needed.

What happens next do we see the biggest battle since Jutland?
... Glorious was sunk on June 1940, before either TIrpitz or Bismarck were comissioned.
... Courageous was sunk even earlier, in 1939.

THis leaves only Victorious available.
True, but this is a hypothetical situation, so I imagine that the original post assumed that all the above mentioned ships were available in in place at that time. I suppose the other alternative to my first post is that the carrier aircraft attack en masse with torpedoes in an attempt to sink or slow down the German ships in order for the heavy ships to finish them off, rather like the end of Bismarck!
I would think that in a case such as this that with all the serviceable 'planes from three carriers loosing off torpedoes at two ships a number are going to to hit.

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by Dave Saxton » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:12 am

paul.mercer wrote: I suppose the other alternative to my first post is that the carrier aircraft attack en masse with torpedoes in an attempt to sink or slow down the German ships in order for the heavy ships to finish them off, rather like the end of Bismarck!
I would think that in a case such as this that with all the serviceable 'planes from three carriers loosing off torpedoes at two ships a number are going to to hit.
Well in this scenario the Germans will certainly have fighter CAP. I would expect FAA torpedo bombers to come out about the same as Torpedo 8 did at Midway.

But what about Fliegerkorps X, which will certainly be involved? This doesn't look good for British at all....
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

Tom17
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:38 pm
Location: Middlesbrough, England

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by Tom17 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:06 pm

Alecsandros wrote:
... Tirpitz was declared fully operational in Jan 1942.
It could have been used, probably, by the time of her Baltic deployment in Oct/Nov 1941, but not at 100% efficiency.

A hypothetical Nov 1941 sortie by Tirpitz/Bismarck in the Atlantic would be extremely bad for the British to handle, as the only available battleships fast enough to catch them would be... KGV and Renown and possibly Duke of York (as Prince of Wales and Repulse were sent to Singapore in late October). The available carriers would be ... HMS Furious (which AFAIK did not carry her own air group ) HMS Victorious and HMS Eagle.
(because Courageous, Glorious, Ark Royal, were sunk; Indomitable ran aground en route to Singapore; Hermes was in the Indian Ocean; HMS Illustrious and HMS Formidable were under repair in USA until December, then in other repairs in the British Isles until February 1942)

If the Admiralty suspected Tirpitz was/was ready enough to sortie by Nov '41 I doubt if force Z would have been sent to singapore (maybe code breaking could confirm her status) and, If Bismarck is still afloat I'd expect Hood to be available to the RN.
When did Furious get a dedicated air group?
Tom

alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4152
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: A desicive battle WW2

Post by alecsandros » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:22 am

Tom17 wrote:
If the Admiralty suspected Tirpitz was/was ready enough to sortie by Nov '41 I doubt if force Z would have been sent to singapore (maybe code breaking could confirm her status) and, If Bismarck is still afloat I'd expect Hood to be available to the RN.
Did they know beforehand about Bismarck's sortie? As it was, they simply scrambled all available ships from the North Atlantic, immediately after air surveillance showed BS and PE had left their anchorage point (22nd of May).

Also, would they have a choice in not sending force Z to SIngapore ? I understand the political pressure was high to send heavy ships to protect the Far East.
When did Furious get a dedicated air group?
Tom
I don't know, but for 1941 she was used to ferry aircraft because there were not enough air groups available, IIRC.

Post Reply