A desicive battle WW2

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Tom17
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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby Tom17 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:18 pm

Codebreaking for the Allies got a bit better in the 6 months between Rheinubung and this threads timeline.
U110 was captured in May '41 with an Enigma machine and other paraphernalia. By July ship losses had dropped dramatically (60 percent +/-) until November.

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/ed ... ay-9--1941

So I suppose (dangerous I know) that Bletchley Park could've decoded material regarding naval movements.

Force Z, as you say was a political decision so who knows if it would or could have been cancelled.

HMS Furious, according to this:

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... urious.htm

was with the Home Fleet until late Nov/early Dec before being assigned as an aircraft ferry.

Tom

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby alecsandros » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:11 am

Tom17 wrote:HMS Furious, according to this:

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... urious.htm

was with the Home Fleet until late Nov/early Dec before being assigned as an aircraft ferry.

Tom

... I'm not sure,
according to the link, Furious was only transporting troops and aircraft to Gibraltar, Malta and Jamaica throughout 1941...

ex:
March - Embarked infantry for passage to Gibraltar.
April - Deployed to carry aircraft to Gibraltar for transfer to HM Aircraft Carrier ARK ROYAL
June - Launched aircraft for flight to Malta and returned to Gibraltar
[...]
Oct - Embarked aircraft for delivery to Jamaica to provide anti-submarine air facilities in Caribbean area. Passage to Jamaica. Disembarked aircraft and took passage to USA for refit.

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby Tom17 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:20 am

Sorry!
My boo-boo!
I was looking at 1940 not 1941
Tom

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RF
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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby RF » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:41 pm

tameraire01 wrote:The entire KM sortie into the north sea among the fleet is the pride of the KM Bismarck and her sister Tirpitz.


Looking at this thread what seems to be missing is what objectives the KM is seeking to achieve - objectives that would have to be agreed between Raeder and Hitler. At that stage of the war it is hard for me to see possible objectives in which favourable outcomes for the Germans are likely.
Another aspect is that the USA is on the point of becoming at actual war with Germany, with the probability that US support for the RN would be thrown in, especially if the KM ships broke out into the Atlantic.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby aurora » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:34 pm

RF wrote:
tameraire01 wrote:The entire KM sortie into the north sea among the fleet is the pride of the KM Bismarck and her sister Tirpitz.


Looking at this thread what seems to be missing is what objectives the KM is seeking to achieve - objectives that would have to be agreed between Raeder and Hitler. At that stage of the war it is hard for me to see possible objectives in which favourable outcomes for the Germans are likely.
Another aspect is that the USA is on the point of becoming at actual war with Germany, with the probability that US support for the RN would be thrown in, especially if the KM ships broke out into the Atlantic.


Right again RF-a hypothetical set up of a KM sortie by Temeraire; and then he asks what happens next-as you say without an objective- it makes a nonsense of the sortie.The way he seemed to be leaning was the engagement of the Home Fleet; but it would be presumptious of me to say that was the objective-I not being the setter.
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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby Dave Saxton » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:45 pm

Tom17 wrote:Codebreaking for the Allies got a bit better in the 6 months between Rheinubung and this threads timeline.
U110 was captured in May '41 with an Enigma machine and other paraphernalia. By July ship losses had dropped dramatically (60 percent +/-) until November.

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/ed ... ay-9--1941

So I suppose (dangerous I know) that Bletchley Park could've decoded material regarding naval movements.



The keys obtained from the weather ship raids and U-110 expired at the end of Sept. Therefore, by Nov 41 Betchley was pretty much in the dark again.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby Dave Saxton » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:10 pm

Tirpitz finally passed gunnery trials on Sept 20th 1941 and was declared fully operational.

On the 26th of Sept Tirpitz departed on its first war cruise to the Eastern Baltic with the Scheer, Nuernburg, and Koln.

It remained in the Eastern Baltic long enough to deter Soviet naval forces from interfering with the conquests of Estonia and other Baltic states.

It transfered to Kiel by Dec 1941.

It's inconcievable that RN Intel would not know these things. While at Kiel and while at Gotenhafen the Tirpitz was photograped by air recon everyday.

However, when Tirpitz transfered to Norway in Jan 42 it went missing for more than week before a Spitfire recon flight discovered it at Trondheim on 23rd of Jan.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby tameraire01 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:35 pm

The reason for the sortie is disrupt the convoys and force the RN into a battle it cannot win.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby alecsandros » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:50 am

Dave Saxton wrote:Tirpitz finally passed gunnery trials on Sept 20th 1941 and was declared fully operational.

On the 26th of Sept Tirpitz departed on its first war cruise to the Eastern Baltic with the Scheer, Nuernburg, and Koln.

It remained in the Eastern Baltic long enough to deter Soviet naval forces from interfering with the conquests of Estonia and other Baltic states.

It transfered to Kiel by Dec 1941.

It's inconcievable that RN Intel would not know these things. While at Kiel and while at Gotenhafen the Tirpitz was photograped by air recon everyday.

However, when Tirpitz transfered to Norway in Jan 42 it went missing for more than week before a Spitfire recon flight discovered it at Trondheim on 23rd of Jan.

... Modifications were done after the Baltic deployment,
Topp declared the Tirpitz fully operational in Jan 1942.

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby aurora » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:04 am

Reinforcements for Home Fleet
On 26 March 1942, Washington was reassigned to Task Force 39, which was also commanded by Wilcox-SNO (USN) Atlantic. She continued serving as his flagship as they departed that day from Portland, Maine with Wasp, Wichita, and Tuscaloosa and an escort of six destroyers. Their destination was the United Kingdom; they were needed to reinforce the British Home Fleet in case Tirpitz left port.Theis addition to the British Home Fleet- would be timely for the planned German sortie-unless the rules have been changed. :think:
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby alecsandros » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:05 pm

aurora wrote:Reinforcements for Home Fleet
On 26 March 1942, Washington was reassigned to Task Force 39, which was also commanded by Wilcox-SNO (USN) Atlantic. She continued serving as his flagship as they departed that day from Portland, Maine with Wasp, Wichita, and Tuscaloosa and an escort of six destroyers. Their destination was the United Kingdom; they were needed to reinforce the British Home Fleet in case Tirpitz left port.Theis addition to the British Home Fleet- would be timely for the planned German sortie-unless the rules have been changed. :think:

... Washington and KGV suffered damage on that voyage. KGV returned to base.

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby aurora » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:48 pm

alecsandros wrote:
aurora wrote:Reinforcements for Home Fleet
On 26 March 1942, Washington was reassigned to Task Force 39, which was also commanded by Wilcox-SNO (USN) Atlantic. She continued serving as his flagship as they departed that day from Portland, Maine with Wasp, Wichita, and Tuscaloosa and an escort of six destroyers. Their destination was the United Kingdom; they were needed to reinforce the British Home Fleet in case Tirpitz left port.Theis addition to the British Home Fleet- would be timely for the planned German sortie-unless the rules have been changed. :think:

... Washington and KGV suffered damage on that voyage. KGV returned to base.


I must confess alecsandros that I did not expect my submission to be acceptable- not being wholly conversant with the Rules of Hypothetical Actions-although it would appear to me that Washington and her antourage were still fit for action.
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby alecsandros » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:39 pm

aurora wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
aurora wrote:Reinforcements for Home Fleet
On 26 March 1942, Washington was reassigned to Task Force 39, which was also commanded by Wilcox-SNO (USN) Atlantic. She continued serving as his flagship as they departed that day from Portland, Maine with Wasp, Wichita, and Tuscaloosa and an escort of six destroyers. Their destination was the United Kingdom; they were needed to reinforce the British Home Fleet in case Tirpitz left port.Theis addition to the British Home Fleet- would be timely for the planned German sortie-unless the rules have been changed. :think:

... Washington and KGV suffered damage on that voyage. KGV returned to base.


I must confess alecsandros that I did not expect my submission to be acceptable- not being wholly conversant with the Rules of Hypothetical Actions-although it would appear to me that Washington and her antourage were still fit for action.


Duke of York was also fit for action.... A possible battle around , say, PQ-17, would be most interesting ...

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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby aurora » Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:02 pm

It certainly would-with three BBs-1USN,1 CV(RN)2 Heavy cruisers (USN) 1st Cruiser Squadron (RN),umpteen destroyers RN and USN v two German BB;s 2 BC.I pocket BB and 2 Heavy cruisers and destroyers.Pretty well matched I would say-the odd player at sea would be Victorious; but she would be the FIRST target for the Luftwaffe-yessir quite a scrap!!!
Quo Fata Vocant-Whither the Fates call

Jim

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Dave Saxton
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Re: A desicive battle WW2

Postby Dave Saxton » Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:48 pm

alecsandros wrote:... Modifications were done after the Baltic deployment,
Topp declared the Tirpitz fully operational in Jan 1942.

Do you know what modifications these were?
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.


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