Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby alecsandros » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:58 am

dunmunro wrote:Dave, thanks. That's very interesting info.

The accuracy of Exeter's fire is often overlooked because she suffered heavily, early on, from 28cm hits to her forward turrets. In fact, Exeter was just as likely to have hit one of GS's 28cm turrets. Had she done so, we would now all be commenting on how quickly Exeter's 8in guns crippled GS's firepower, and how quickly the battle became an overwhelming RN victory, rather than a near Kriegsmarine one, that turned into a draw.

... AGS had 150mm thick face plate declined at 60* from the vertical. A 8" hit at 18km would not penetrate that... possible shock damage though.

[AGS did have problems with her aft turret due to multiple 6" hits, that ultimately jammed the elevator. The final salvos fired from 21-24km , some of which straddled Achilles, were fired from the forward main turret only]

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby Thorsten Wahl » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:54 am

Im pretty sure I have posted the scetch of AGS damage somwhere on this board.

the official list
Image
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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby alecsandros » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:12 am

Thorsten Wahl wrote:Im pretty sure I have posted the scetch of AGS damage somwhere on this board.

the official list
Image

I do not understand German , Thorsten...
Can you please tell us how many hits of either caliber are indicated ?

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby dunmunro » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:17 am

alecsandros wrote:
dunmunro wrote:Dave, thanks. That's very interesting info.

The accuracy of Exeter's fire is often overlooked because she suffered heavily, early on, from 28cm hits to her forward turrets. In fact, Exeter was just as likely to have hit one of GS's 28cm turrets. Had she done so, we would now all be commenting on how quickly Exeter's 8in guns crippled GS's firepower, and how quickly the battle became an overwhelming RN victory, rather than a near Kriegsmarine one, that turned into a draw.

... AGS had 150mm thick face plate declined at 60* from the vertical. A 8" hit at 18km would not penetrate that... possible shock damage though.

[AGS did have problems with her aft turret due to multiple 6" hits, that ultimately jammed the elevator. The final salvos fired from 21-24km , some of which straddled Achilles, were fired from the forward main turret only]


AGS had a 140mm turret faceplate inclined at 75 degs (15 degs from the vertical), so that it reduced the angle of impact to normal for an 8in hit at ~15000 yds. AGS's turret faces were vulnerable to 8in SAP hits from ~19000 yds or less.

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby alecsandros » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:23 am

dunmunro wrote:AGS had a 140mm turret faceplate inclined at 75 degs (15 degs from the vertical), so that it reduced the angle of impact to normal for an 8in hit at ~15000 yds. AGS's turret faces were vulnerable to 8in SAP hits from ~19000 yds or less.

I suggest you double-check those sources.

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby Thorsten Wahl » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:28 am

20 hits
therof two (number 3 and 15) hits with 20,3 cm
all other 15 cm

The report does not mention permanent damage to fuel cleaning equipment,
but because of splinterdamage to the funnel, ther was some danger of fire/explosion by escaping hot exhaust gases to fuel equipment nearby, wich was turned off for this reason; (war diary of SKL from January 1940)

To solve this the funnel requires a simple patch.

Some words to accuracy of british 15 cm guns used on cruisers
in a engagement with german destroyers in 1940 the german war diaries mention very consistent shooting of the cruiser at a distance they could not respond
distance about 19 km
the german destroyers were presenting a end on target
Spread of full salvos for range was about 3/4 of destroyerlength
spread for deflection only few meters
no hits were obtained as the german destroyers changed course every time they detected firings.
they felt, that they had been hit without these course changes.
it was no continous fire of the british cruiser
Last edited by Thorsten Wahl on Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby dunmunro » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:34 am

alecsandros wrote:
dunmunro wrote:AGS had a 140mm turret faceplate inclined at 75 degs (15 degs from the vertical), so that it reduced the angle of impact to normal for an 8in hit at ~15000 yds. AGS's turret faces were vulnerable to 8in SAP hits from ~19000 yds or less.

I suggest you double-check those sources.


Those numbers are stated in multiple sources including Warship Profile 4 and Whitely, German Capital Ships of WW2.

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby alecsandros » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:07 am

dunmunro wrote:
alecsandros wrote:
dunmunro wrote:AGS had a 140mm turret faceplate inclined at 75 degs (15 degs from the vertical), so that it reduced the angle of impact to normal for an 8in hit at ~15000 yds. AGS's turret faces were vulnerable to 8in SAP hits from ~19000 yds or less.

I suggest you double-check those sources.


Those numbers are stated in multiple sources including Warship Profile 4 and Whitely, German Capital Ships of WW2.

... Those are the numbers for Deutschland. Graf Spee had thicker armor.

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby Dave Saxton » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:35 pm

The range of the engagment and of the hits scored is another complicated matter, and I remain firm to the probability that range between AGS and Exeter was 15km at most at 6:32.


Look at the track charts. Open fire range was 22,500 yards (20,600 meters) Exeter turns onto a westerly course by 0620. AGS has already been on a easterly course since 0617. By 0632 AGS is on a northern course.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby alecsandros » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:20 pm

Dave Saxton wrote:
The range of the engagment and of the hits scored is another complicated matter, and I remain firm to the probability that range between AGS and Exeter was 15km at most at 6:32.


Look at the track charts. Open fire range was 22,500 yards (20,600 meters) Exeter turns onto a westerly course by 0620. AGS has already been on a easterly course since 0617. By 0632 AGS is on a northern course.

... At 6:32 Exeter launched 3 torpedoes, Ajax and Achilles continued broadside fire, and AGS changed course and laid smoke.

Exeter's torpedoes had 10km range.

Mis-judging the range can happen, but I don't know how a distance can be mis-judged by a factor of 2x (10km instead of 20) by navy personnel.

Exeter was not out of the battle yet, it only left after 7:00, at 18kts (after suffering several more direct hits and damaging near misses).

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby Paul L » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:09 pm

Hit rates sound like training exercise and not based on real world battles. In Plate AGS got 1 hit for every 45 *11" Shells fired , while the 4"flak got 1 hit out of 200 shells fired.

Exeter got 3 hits on 200 shots while the 6" guns got 17 hits on 2065 shots.

Against Glowworm , Hipper got 2 hits on 31 shots at short range.

Hipper got 4 hits on CA Berwick after 185* 8" shells were fired at 8000 yards

I think you need to tweak the Sim.
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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby alecsandros » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:20 pm

Paul L wrote:Exeter got 3 hits on 200 shots

No, as presented above, Exeter got 2 hits.

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby Dave Saxton » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:54 pm

Paul L wrote:Hit rates sound like training exercise and not based on real world battles. In Plate AGS got 1 hit for every 45 *11" Shells fired , while the 4"flak got 1 hit out of 200 shells fired.

Exeter got 3 hits on 200 shots while the 6" guns got 17 hits on 2065 shots.

Against Glowworm , Hipper got 2 hits on 31 shots at short range.

Hipper got 4 hits on CA Berwick after 185* 8" shells were fired at 8000 yards

I think you need to tweak the Sim.


Spee left Germany with only a total of 600 11" rounds, so it had less than 600 on hand at the start of the battle. It had 306 rounds left over after the battle according to KM reports. Most of the 11" expended was during the stern chase. If one looks at the initial shooting before the stern chase phase, it hit Exeter at least 7 times on only about 100 rounds expended, and that was from 18+km.

Hipper fired 174 total rounds at Berwick and Bonaventure.

At Barents Sea Hipper got 8 known hits from 125 rounds at 11km to 17.7km. 51 rounds were fired at the Bramble for unknown number of hits, so it was actually better than that. Against Onslow, for example, it scored 4 hits from 48 rounds fired. Hipper's shooting was during the polar night amid fog and snow showers.

The historical German cruiser combat shooting was far better than average. However, the 8" cruiser shooting by others was not very good at all. Exeter's historical shooting during the beginning of River Plate seems to be an exception to the general rule.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby ric_roc » Tue May 31, 2016 2:41 am

I have published an iPad Naval simulation on Apple App Store yesterday, the name is DKM Graf Spee and the current scenarios are:

Scenario #1 - Rio De Plata - 13 Dec, 1939 6:10 am
This is the historical scenario, 6:10am the DKM Graf Spee attack a British Cruiser squadron consisting of HMS Exeter (heavy cruiser) and HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles (light cruisers).

Scenario #2 - Rio De Plata - 13 Dec, 1939 2:30 pm
After the morning battle, DKM Graf Spee Von Langsdorf radied a report to Berlin with request for following order, Admiral Raeder ordered to stay at sea and evade his followers.

Scenario #3 - Escape from Montevideo - 15 Dec, 1939 15:10 pm
The DKM Graf Spee was quickly refitted in Montevideo, however the germans were not able to get ammunitions or major repair proceeded. Outside the HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles were picketing.

Scenario #4 - Escape from Montevideo - 17 Dec, 1939 15:10 pm
The DKM Graf Spee was quickly refitted in Montevideo, major repair proceeded. Outside the HMS Cumberland joined the HMS Ajax and HMS Achille.

Scenario #5 - Escape from Mar del Plata - 19 Dec, 1939 13:10 pm
The DKM Graf Spee was refitted in Mar del Plata, the germans were able to get ammunitions and repair parts through an audacious air raid.

Scenario #6 - Surprise in the Doldrums - 28 Sep, 1939 7:10 am
The DKM Graf Spee was surprised during a maintenance operation by HMS Cumberland, the British cruiser daringly heads towards the Pocket Battleship to engage fire.

Scenario #7 - Engagement at the Cape - 15 Nov, 1939 15:10 pm
Coming back into the Atlantic the DKM Graf Spee was spotted by HMS Shropshire and HMS Sussex, the RN Heavy Cruiser Squadrom steam up to intercept the German Raider.

Scenario #8 - Encounter with "La Royale" Force M Les Croiseurs - 11 Oct, 1939 7:10 am
The DKM Graf Spee was localized by a floatplane from Dakar. The force M, heavy cruisers MN Dupleix and MN Algerie was directed to intercept the Pocket Battleship.

I will provide an update mid-July with more scenarios, all suggestions are welcome!

Best Regards,
Ric

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Re: Graf Spee trying to escape back to Germany...

Postby RF » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:44 am

Dave Saxton wrote:
Spee left Germany with only a total of 600 11" rounds


What was the maximum 11 inch rounds magazine provision?

Was the 5.9 inch shell stock also underprovided?

Despatching the ship on what could have been a long range war cruise would or should require a full provision of ammunition. Not to do so I would have thought would be an act of negligence.
Most navies would have done that, even where war is not expected - just in case.
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