Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

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RF
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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby RF » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:37 am

The point I was making in my previous post is that the Germans would be unaware of the state of POW gunnery and POW in company with Norfolk and Suffolk would therefore be some deterrent to Bismarck attack.
The role of Norfolk and Suffolk was to shadow Bismarck. Disengaging means contact can be lost. POW at less than being fully operational would only give limited heavy covering fire, but that is better than no battleship presence at all. POW simply by being there would have to draw Bismarck's fire, taking the pressure off the cruisers. A sleeping policeman is better than no policeman at all, though I think that POW did still have some teeth.
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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby alecsandros » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:38 am

Christian VII. wrote:
RF wrote:But POW's speed was hardly impaired, even with the under water hits, while the actual shell damage above waterline was superficial. The POW's speed and lack of obvious damage was given as Lutjen's reasons for not continuing the action.

POW did drop some speed to join up with Norfolk and Suffolk. Had Lutjens turned round to attack the cruisers the POW would be caught up with it, regardless of how fast it was moving. Leach's duty in breaking off the action until Tovey arrived was to provide heavy ship cover for Wake-Walker, who on the destruction of Hood became Leach's immediate superior officer.


I know her speed wasn't impaired


... According to Capt. Leach, Prince of Wales best speed after the action was 26kts.

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby Christian VII. » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:28 am

alecsandros wrote:
Christian VII. wrote:
RF wrote:But POW's speed was hardly impaired, even with the under water hits, while the actual shell damage above waterline was superficial. The POW's speed and lack of obvious damage was given as Lutjen's reasons for not continuing the action.

POW did drop some speed to join up with Norfolk and Suffolk. Had Lutjens turned round to attack the cruisers the POW would be caught up with it, regardless of how fast it was moving. Leach's duty in breaking off the action until Tovey arrived was to provide heavy ship cover for Wake-Walker, who on the destruction of Hood became Leach's immediate superior officer.


I know her speed wasn't impaired


... According to Capt. Leach, Prince of Wales best speed after the action was 26kts.


Well yes but only by 2 knots :)

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby Christian VII. » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:36 am

RF wrote:The point I was making in my previous post is that the Germans would be unaware of the state of POW gunnery and POW in company with Norfolk and Suffolk would therefore be some deterrent to Bismarck attack.
The role of Norfolk and Suffolk was to shadow Bismarck. Disengaging means contact can be lost. POW at less than being fully operational would only give limited heavy covering fire, but that is better than no battleship presence at all. POW simply by being there would have to draw Bismarck's fire, taking the pressure off the cruisers. A sleeping policeman is better than no policeman at all, though I think that POW did still have some teeth.


But why would Lutjens target PoW before he had finished off his first target? Wouldn't it make more sense to first finish off the target you've already engaged and are probably already straddling with salvos?

Of course there's also the possibility that Lutjens would have PG deal with Norfolk & Suffolk, whilst BM would deal with PoW.

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby alecsandros » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:42 am

Christian VII. wrote:
RF wrote:The point I was making in my previous post is that the Germans would be unaware of the state of POW gunnery and POW in company with Norfolk and Suffolk would therefore be some deterrent to Bismarck attack.
The role of Norfolk and Suffolk was to shadow Bismarck. Disengaging means contact can be lost. POW at less than being fully operational would only give limited heavy covering fire, but that is better than no battleship presence at all. POW simply by being there would have to draw Bismarck's fire, taking the pressure off the cruisers. A sleeping policeman is better than no policeman at all, though I think that POW did still have some teeth.


But why would Lutjens target PoW before he had finished off his first target? Wouldn't it make more sense to first finish off the target you've already engaged and are probably already straddling with salvos?

Of course there's also the possibility that Lutjens would have PG deal with Norfolk & Suffolk, whilst BM would deal with PoW.

HIstorically Luetjens ordered Prinz EUgen to engage PRince of Wales at 5:57/58, before Hood was destroyed. Bismarck's 150mm artillery also opened fire on Prince of WAles at about 5:59.

At 6:04 Prince of Wales had 5 operational main guns. NOroflk and Suffolk would not stand and fight Bismarck/Prinz Eugen. They would retreat northwards.

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby Christian VII. » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:55 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Christian VII. wrote:
RF wrote:The point I was making in my previous post is that the Germans would be unaware of the state of POW gunnery and POW in company with Norfolk and Suffolk would therefore be some deterrent to Bismarck attack.
The role of Norfolk and Suffolk was to shadow Bismarck. Disengaging means contact can be lost. POW at less than being fully operational would only give limited heavy covering fire, but that is better than no battleship presence at all. POW simply by being there would have to draw Bismarck's fire, taking the pressure off the cruisers. A sleeping policeman is better than no policeman at all, though I think that POW did still have some teeth.


But why would Lutjens target PoW before he had finished off his first target? Wouldn't it make more sense to first finish off the target you've already engaged and are probably already straddling with salvos?

Of course there's also the possibility that Lutjens would have PG deal with Norfolk & Suffolk, whilst BM would deal with PoW.

HIstorically Luetjens ordered Prinz EUgen to engage PRince of Wales at 5:57/58, before Hood was destroyed. Bismarck's 150mm artillery also opened fire on Prince of WAles at about 5:59.

At 6:04 Prince of Wales had 5 operational main guns. NOroflk and Suffolk would not stand and fight Bismarck/Prinz Eugen. They would retreat northwards.


Yeah I agree with that.

Out of interest how accurate was Bismarck's secondary fire during the battle? Didn't they get their range & bearing figures from the same source?

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby alecsandros » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:03 pm

Christian VII. wrote:
Out of interest how accurate was Bismarck's secondary fire during the battle? Didn't they get their range & bearing figures from the same source?

... I don't know where did the 150mm weapons were directed during the battle of Denmark Strait.

In theory, all command positions could be used for directing all types of artillery.

However, the middle 150mm turrets from each side carried dedicated directors, that could be used to direct the secondary guns.

At Denmark Strait, there are no documented hits by the 150mm artillery that I know about. British sources mentioned Bismarck's salvos were falling "around" Prince of Wales at a rate of 15 to 20 seconds, implying a rate of fire of 3 to 4 salvos/minute for the 150mm artillery.

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby Christian VII. » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:25 pm

I suppose the dispersion of the 150mm guns would be noticably greater at long ranges as well, the shells being a lot more affected by wind and weather than the much heavier main caliber shells.

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby Steve Crandell » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:50 pm

alecsandros wrote:However, the middle 150mm turrets from each side carried dedicated directors, that could be used to direct the secondary guns.


I'm curious about this. It is obvious that the middle turrets had rangefinders, unlike the others. When you say "directors", what exactly does that mean? For example, I doubt there was room for the type of computer that was present in the main fire control rooms. Was there a periscope for use by a director officer to spot the fall of shot, or what?

The directors normally used to control the secondary battery were the ones in the conning tower, and I assume that rangefinder was normally used with the secondary battery as well.

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby alecsandros » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:30 pm

Steve Crandell wrote:
alecsandros wrote:However, the middle 150mm turrets from each side carried dedicated directors, that could be used to direct the secondary guns.


I'm curious about this. It is obvious that the middle turrets had rangefinders, unlike the others. When you say "directors", what exactly does that mean? For example, I doubt there was room for the type of computer that was present in the main fire control rooms. Was there a periscope for use by a director officer to spot the fall of shot, or what?

The directors normally used to control the secondary battery were the ones in the conning tower, and I assume that rangefinder was normally used with the secondary battery as well.


... I think the 150mm turret with rangefinder could direct 6 guns per side in local control. But this was probably resorted to only if the main fire control stations were not functional, or in other emergency situations.

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Re: Pocket Battleship with the Bismarck

Postby Steve Crandell » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:06 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Steve Crandell wrote:
alecsandros wrote:However, the middle 150mm turrets from each side carried dedicated directors, that could be used to direct the secondary guns.


I'm curious about this. It is obvious that the middle turrets had rangefinders, unlike the others. When you say "directors", what exactly does that mean? For example, I doubt there was room for the type of computer that was present in the main fire control rooms. Was there a periscope for use by a director officer to spot the fall of shot, or what?

The directors normally used to control the secondary battery were the ones in the conning tower, and I assume that rangefinder was normally used with the secondary battery as well.


... I think the 150mm turret with rangefinder could direct 6 guns per side in local control. But this was probably resorted to only if the main fire control stations were not functional, or in other emergency situations.


That would be assumed. I was just wondering what sort of equipment it had with which to do that, other than a range finder.


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