Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

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Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Djoser » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:30 am

Late summer/fall 41. Tirpitz not fully worked up, bur neither was POW at Denmark Strait. Perhaps greater efforts made for speedy completion in the previous year.

Obviously the Brits will throw whatever they could to stop such a task force, but the the three ships listed were the ones with the speed to catch it. Thus Nelson Rodney etc are excepted.

The Germans would have the edge, but could have been one hell of a fight

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Francis Marliere » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:53 pm

Djoser wrote: the the three ships listed were the ones with the speed to catch it.


I would add Renown, Repulse, Victorious and may be Ark Royal.
The German squadron appears powerfull but may be a bit less after a few air strikes.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Garyt » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:30 pm

I'd throw in a handful of cruisers and destroyers on the Brit side - and throw in some for the German side as well, just not nearly as many.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Djoser » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Yes of course the R & R should be included, since this scenario predicates the Hood catastrophe and subsequent fear for the lighter skinned capital ships. Many thanks for the suggestion. This would also help balance things out. Especially if both KGVs guns malfunctioned at once!

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Garyt » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:50 pm

What I find interesting is that the Renown and Repulse seemed to have decent, though not good deck armor, but their belt armor seemed to pale more in comparison to battleships.

The concern with their "uparmoring" from their 1933 refitting seems to have been more concerned with plunging fire.

I also find it interesting that their horizontal armor was replaced, not just layered over.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby paul.mercer » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:58 pm

Gentlemen,
it would be an interesting scenario, but I fear the result might have been the same as far a Hood was concerned, remember Hood was assumed by the world to be the ultimate in British sea power and she would probably also be the leading ship so I would expect the Germans to concentrate on her first. As for Repulse and Renown, they too were only battle cruisers and Repulse was told to stay away from the final battle unless Bismarck was fully engaged, to include them against Bismarck and Tirpitz may well have ended with a similar situation to the British battlecruisers at Jutland. No doubt the concentration of firepower from all those RN ships would eventually win the day, but at what cost?

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Garyt » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:27 pm

Adding Repulse and Renonwn would also add targets for the Sharnhorst that it's guns could penetrate at range, easier to penetrate than the KG5 armor.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby RF » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:20 am

I think the key to this is what happens to Hood.

If I was commanding the British force I would not rush in to engage, but identify where Scharnhorst, the weakest of the German ships in firepower is, and seek to engage, if possible, with KGV on Bismarck, POW on Tirpitz and Hood on Scharnhorst. The latter engagement would I feel be the crucial confrontation - Hood concentrates fire on Scharnhorst while only facing 11 inch fire in return. Hood should be able to degrade Scharnhorst and eliminate it from the battle without disabling damage in return. The two KGV'S slug it out with the Bismarck's and all four ships should get heavily damaged. The salient factor is that the Bismarck and Tirpitz have turrets damaged or knocked out and their firepower degraded in a long action and they also become separated from each other - Hood is then brought in to support the KGV's' against either Bismarck or Tirpitz and that could tip the battle into the RN's favour if Hood can avoid coming under heavy fire itself.
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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Francis Marliere » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:37 am

I feel the comments are a bit harsh for the British squadron. I guess that IF the German fleet is located and intercepted by a concentrated British squadron (that's a big IF because North Atlantic is large and the Home Fleet has to survey both the Danemark Strait and the Iceland-Faroe Gap), the odds are, IMHO, not in favor of the Kriegsmarine (if, as I suppose, the British also have Repulse, Renown and carriers).

Since the British fleet has one, may be two carriers, we may assume that at least one German warship have been torpedoed and has lost some speed, and may be some armamement or fire control.

While the two Bismarck class battleships may have a slight edge over their British counterparts of the KGV class, the 5 RN BB and BC have more hitting and staying power than their 3 opponents : (180.000 t / 20 14" and 20 15" guns vs less than 120.000 t / 16 15" and 9 11" guns).

It is also probable that the British ships have a screen of several cruisers and destroyers that may be helpfull in such a battle. Cruiser gunfire, while not dangerous for heavily armoured ships, may damage radars and fire controls, and destroyers may attack with torpedoes. Even if they do not score, an attack may force the German squadron to maneuver or shift fire.

Best,

Francis

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby alecsandros » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:46 am

Francis Marliere wrote:I feel the comments are a bit harsh for the British squadron. I guess that IF the German fleet is located and intercepted by a concentrated British squadron (that's a big IF because North Atlantic is large and the Home Fleet has to survey both the Danemark Strait and the Iceland-Faroe Gap), the odds are, IMHO, not in favor of the Kriegsmarine (if, as I suppose, the British also have Repulse, Renown and carriers).


Francis

Quite true,
If the British would manage such a concentration of forces (6-8 capital ships - BB, BC, CV), the odds would be greatly in their favor.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Djoser » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:25 pm

Ah yes with carriers in the picture, not much chance for the germans.

I was envisaging a Denmark Strait type situation. Again, kind of a surprise for the Germans--as even this powerful three BB/BC squadron would not want to take on 2 BBs and 3 BCs, even if R & R were not really meant for a slugfest.

I imagine Hood would lead, the vulnerability of the Hood not being fully realized. Otherwise RF's solution to the British situation would be ideal for them.

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Tom17 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:56 am

Tovey, when he had the choice (before OTL Bismarck chase), flew his flag in KGV. I see no reason why he would swap to Hood.
Therefore I don't imagine Hood would be leading the line.
Tom

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby RF » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:00 pm

Tom17 wrote:Tovey, when he had the choice (before OTL Bismarck chase), flew his flag in KGV. I see no reason why he would swap to Hood.
Therefore I don't imagine Hood would be leading the line.
Tom


This will be the critical factor in this battle, especially if the Germans adopt the policy of ''fire on leading ship.''

I would expect Tovey to use Hood as his back up ship, taking on as I say the weakest ship in the German line up, Scharnhorst (weak in terms of relative firepower that is).
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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby Djoser » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:09 am

I keep going over the possibilities in this, the penultimate--but not unrealistic--scenario featuring the KGM in something approaching fleet status.

However I never thought about Tovey wanting to remain in KGV and that changes a lot, also giving the Brits more of an edge, so long as those turrets/guns were free from breakdown. :negative:

So we would have KGV taking on Bismark as the two leaders, and some combos slugging it out from the force pools POW Hood & the R & Rs, vs Tirpitz Scharnhorst

I don't see any way to achieve something close to a real chance of German victory without a little more in their favor than the Brits' BC weaknesses and the KGVs' main battery mechanical issues.

If we include the PE it might just work. Especially if the Brits mistake the PE for a Bismarck a la Denmark Strait. Not good for the PE, of course--but very good for the rest of the KGM there.

Wouldn't take a miracle for this apocalyptic duel actually happening in an alternate WW II, nor a miracle for the KGM to pull it off--even if as at DS they were NOT looking for this kind of brawl either.

Let's remember the odds against Bismarck & PE at Denmark Strait, and the result... :think:

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Re: Bismarck Tirpitz Scharnhorst vs King George V Prince of Wales Hood

Postby alecsandros » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:11 am

Djoser wrote:Wouldn't take a miracle for this apocalyptic duel actually happening in an alternate WW II, nor a miracle for the KGM to pull it off--even if as at DS they were NOT looking for this kind of brawl either.

Let's remember the odds against Bismarck & PE at Denmark Strait, and the result... :think:

Well, if the Germans would be crossing the T of the British force ...


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