May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

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RF
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May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by RF » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:10 am

At the time of the actual Rheinubung neither of these ships were properly worked up.

What would happen if these two ships met in combat at their state of readiness as at 24 May 1941, with no other forces involved?
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:16 am

RF wrote:At the time of the actual Rheinubung neither of these ships were properly worked up.

What would happen if these two ships met in combat at their state of readiness as at 24 May 1941, with no other forces involved?
Probably Prince of Wales sunk in 10-15 minutes, or extremely badly damaged and floating slowly to Britain.

(The reason, IMHO, is not chiefly size of ships or crew readiness, but the geometry of the battle. If roles were reversed, with PoW crossing the T of Bismarck, the battle may be very different !)

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Dave Saxton » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:24 pm

Alex, Tirpitz failed gunnery trials some weeks after May 24th 1941. It was sent back to the yard. POW was vastly more prepared for battle than was Tirpitz on May 24th 1941.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:46 am

Dave Saxton wrote:Alex, Tirpitz failed gunnery trials some weeks after May 24th 1941. It was sent back to the yard. POW was vastly more prepared for battle than was Tirpitz on May 24th 1941.
My bad !
I read "Tirpitz", but only thought about "Bismarck" :D

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by RF » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:15 am

Dave Saxton wrote:Alex, Tirpitz failed gunnery trials some weeks after May 24th 1941. It was sent back to the yard. POW was vastly more prepared for battle than was Tirpitz on May 24th 1941.
That is also my impression, however the incomplete state of readiness of both ships makes this I think a more interesting scenario. I cannot see either ship being sunk, it is a question of how much damage they can do to each other and how long they can stay in action.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by kevin32422 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:25 am

I would still pick the Tirpitz the secondary were a little bigger than the Prince of Wales I believe and sloppy shooting is better than the guns jamming in my book

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by RF » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:33 am

The secondaries, the 5.9 inch versus 5.25 inch, are unlikely to be of much use to either side in view of the armour plating. Neither would torpedoes be available.

It comes down to a long slogging match, damage slowly building up as the action proceeds. Sloppy gunnery would indeed be preferable to guns jamming, and I suspect that as a long action continues the sloppy gunnery would gradually improve?
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Djoser » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:25 pm

Dave Saxton wrote:Alex, Tirpitz failed gunnery trials some weeks after May 24th 1941. It was sent back to the yard. POW was vastly more prepared for battle than was Tirpitz on May 24th 1941.
Aha thanks, I always wondered. You hear about POW being a green ship. The mechanical difficulties were the greater problem, Which might give the Tirpitz the edge.

I would guess a whole lot of ammunition wasted on both sides

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by paulcadogan » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:53 am

Hmmmm! Sloppy shooting vs. mechanical problems....

Before mechanical problems become significant, damaging hits can be scored (as happened in PoW vs. Bismarck reality). So, Tirpitz starts taking hits and she then uses her superior speed to try to escape (unless she loses that to an underwater hit!).

And don't underestimate the effect of the secondaries for both sides. A 4.5-inch shell from Renown took out Gneisenau's A-turret - an extremely fortuitous hit, but nevertheless the turret was disabled. There is of course the effect of HE on gun directors, radar and personnel.....

If Tirpitz' gun power and directors can stay intact long enough for PoW's turret issues to become significant AND THEN find the target, then the situation changes.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by kevin32422 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:13 am

RF wrote:The secondaries, the 5.9 inch versus 5.25 inch, are unlikely to be of much use to either side in view of the armour plating. Neither would torpedoes be available.

It comes down to a long slogging match, damage slowly building up as the action proceeds. Sloppy gunnery would indeed be preferable to guns jamming, and I suspect that as a long action continues the sloppy gunnery would gradually improve?
I would say gradually improve, having sloppy gunnery as opposed to guns jamming would make me feel better at least I could shoot back! lol

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by kevin32422 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:16 am

paulcadogan wrote:Hmmmm! Sloppy shooting vs. mechanical problems....

Before mechanical problems become significant, damaging hits can be scored (as happened in PoW vs. Bismarck reality). So, Tirpitz starts taking hits and she then uses her superior speed to try to escape (unless she loses that to an underwater hit!).

And don't underestimate the effect of the secondaries for both sides. A 4.5-inch shell from Renown took out Gneisenau's A-turret - an extremely fortuitous hit, but nevertheless the turret was disabled. There is of course the effect of HE on gun directors, radar and personnel.....

If Tirpitz' gun power and directors can stay intact long enough for PoW's turret issues to become significant AND THEN find the target, then the situation changes.
All this is speculation and it is fun to do so BUT what it really comes down to is who is going to get the first major hit and how bad does it hurt the other side there is a lot of different things that could happen in such a battle.

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by paulcadogan » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:57 am

kevin32422 wrote:All this is speculation
But Kevin, that's what a hypothetical scenario is all about! :D
kevin32422 wrote:UT what it really comes down to is who is going to get the first major hit and how bad does it hurt the other side there is a lot of different things that could happen in such a battle.
Absolutely! :ok: That is true in any confrontation no matter how the odds are skewed in favour of one or the other.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Gary » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:36 pm

Believe it or not, PoW gave as good as she got against Bismarck.
I'm talking about the bow hit that deprived Lutjens of almost 1000 tons of fuel oil.
Leach was a good Captain so was Karl Topp.
A shoot out would result in damage to both ships, neither would find it easy to actually sink the other BUT if it happens in the Denmark Strait the Germans have a harder job of getting home....
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros » Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:15 am

Gary wrote:Believe it or not, PoW gave as good as she got against Bismarck.

A shoot out would result in damage to both ships,
Historically Prince of Wales was no match for Bismarck on May 24th (and it is obvious, as PoW withdrew covered in smoke).

With both BBs fully worked up and completely equipped, chances would be much more even.

The Germans , as of March 1942 , expected that in a North Atlantic battle between Tirpitz and KGV, the first chance would go to the German ship, BUT the probable received damage would be significant, and chances of the ship getting back to port would be slim, as other British ships would almost certainly be in the vicinity of a KGV BB.

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by RF » Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:06 pm

Gary wrote:Believe it or not, PoW gave as good as she got against Bismarck.
I'm talking about the bow hit that deprived Lutjens of almost 1000 tons of fuel oil.
Well yes, that is so - BUT it is a misleading analysis. POW scored while Hood was drawing German fire, Bismarck scored over a much shorter time parameter, after Hood blew up and while POW retreated under cover of smoke. On that basis, in boxing terminology, Bismarck was the winner on points.

The acid test would be for POW to continue the action for another ten to fifteen minutes. I would expect Bismarck by then to land severe hits on POW while POW may land a few more hits on Bismarck.....
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