Fleet action with capital ships

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
paul.mercer
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Fleet action with capital ships

Postby paul.mercer » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:53 pm

Gentlemen,
We have discussed many variations of battleship to battleship actions but I don't think this has been a topic before (forgive me if it has).
Let us put German fast ships against those of the RN, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gniesnau (both re-gunned to 6 x 15" each) plus AGS, Scheer and Deutchland versus KG5, PoW, Howe,Anson, DoY and perhaps Renown or Repulse. If this seems a bit 'top heavy' on the RN side perhaps remove the battlecruiser and add a 8 x 8" heavy cruiser or two, although if we do maybe one KG5 might have its work cut out dealing with three ships with a combined firepower of 18 x 11" guns on the German pocket battleships.
Any thoughts on the winners?

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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby alecsandros » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:49 am

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
We have discussed many variations of battleship to battleship actions but I don't think this has been a topic before (forgive me if it has).
Let us put German fast ships against those of the RN, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gniesnau (both re-gunned to 6 x 15" each) plus AGS, Scheer and Deutchland versus KG5, PoW, Howe,Anson, DoY and perhaps Renown or Repulse. If this seems a bit 'top heavy' on the RN side perhaps remove the battlecruiser and add a 8 x 8" heavy cruiser or two, although if we do maybe one KG5 might have its work cut out dealing with three ships with a combined firepower of 18 x 11" guns on the German pocket battleships.
Any thoughts on the winners?

IMHO the winners would be the British.

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RF
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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby RF » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:22 am

I agree. The RN has five at least heavy ships, the Germans have two which can match the KGV's but unless the twins have 15 inch guns instead of 11 inch they are outgunned.

The three PB's would be target practice for Repulse or Renown - once they are disposed of the twins will be sunk by combined firepower of the RN ships.

Interesting that Hood was not included in the RN line up, but Repulse/Renown instead.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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RF
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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby RF » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:28 am

I think it unrealistic to think of this as a Jutland style confrontation, the KM would not go for a battle like this.

One variation you might consider would be a combined Axis force, given this is purely hypothetical, instead of the PB's have Hiei and Kirishima from the IJN and OK the RN has both Renown and Repulse. Or, instead of the Japanese have Vittorio Veneto or Littorio.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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VoidSamukai
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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby VoidSamukai » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:32 am

Or just add the Yamatos. That should even it out a little.

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RF
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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby RF » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:44 am

Thats's overkill.....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby alecsandros » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:40 am

IMHO coordonation would make the British win almost every time.

Historically, all heavy ships engagements of WW2 showed that:
1) German heavy ships behaved well when alone ("against the odds" - Bismarck at Denmark Strait, Graf Spee at River Plate, Scheer, Lutzow, Hipper in their raiding missions)
2) German ships behaved poorly when operating together (Channel Dash, Barents Sea, Rosselsprung, sinking of Glorious to some extent, North Cape, etc)

There was an almost complete lack of battle experience for high-ranking officers, that only became worse as the war went on.

The British showed exactly the opposite - with individual ships being usualy overwhelmed by German counterparts, but with excellent coordonation of multiple ships.

This is why I would expect a royal f***-up on the German side, and a good organization and cooperation on the British side.

The Germans couldn't win even with H-classes...

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RF
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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby RF » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:14 am

I would agree with this.

Looking at this argument one action not mentioned is the second battle of Narvik. OK the battle was in the confined space of a fjord, but out of ten German destroyers only one could even get the Warspite into their torpedo sights..... reverse the situation with a German heavy ship sailing into a fjord containing ten RN destroyers my money would be on the German being sunk by a fullisade of torpedoes from all directions with minimal loss to the destroyers.
Indeed look at the German fiasco's during the Norwegian campaign - the Blucher being sunk, the Hipper being rammed by Glowworm....

Of all the German commanders I can only think of Spee and Souchon in WW1 who seemed competent in getting ship tactics right and in Spee's case still fell victim to superior forces.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby Tom17 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:01 am

Does the KM admiral have the standard 'Don't engage unless absolutely necessary' orders or 'Sink 'em all' orders?
If the first, the faster ships will sail away and the PBs get sunk.
If the second, the RN ships open the range to initially take the PBs out of the battle and concentrate on the faster KM ships first. Making it 7 RN ships versus 5 Kriegsmarine ships (even in a stern chase RN will have 20x14" and 4x15" against KMs 16x15"). Then, depending on whats still functional, take on the PBs (or not, as the case may be).

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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby Steve Crandell » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:54 am

If the visibility is like it was at the Denmark Strait, the engagement will begin with all ships involved and it will probably be over one way or another before the British could manage to run away long enough to separate the German PBs.

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Re: Fleet action with capital ships

Postby alecsandros » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:55 am

Steve Crandell wrote:If the visibility is like it was at the Denmark Strait, the engagement will begin with all ships involved and it will probably be over one way or another before the British could manage to run away long enough to separate the German PBs.

... James Cameron would have plenty of ships to film at the bottom of the ocean :D


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