What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

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What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby alecsandros » Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:25 pm

Hello,

Thinking about Prince of Wales's manouvre to exit the battle, shrouded in smoke, at high speed (May 24th 6:03 - 6:09), the following quesition appeared:

- Did Bismarck or Prinz Eugen had installations that could be used to generate an effective smoke screen ?
- If yes, could Luetjens avoid combat on May 24th by using them, thus negating enemy artillery spotting, while accelerating to 31kts for PRinz Eugen and 30kts for Bismarck ?

The drawings I tried to do give distances of 16 - 20km between Hood and Bismarck, at the minimum, before Bismarck's course becomes to far ahead of Hood , and the range starts to increase (as Hood as doing 29kts at maximum).

Thanks,

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby Thorsten Wahl » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:40 am

Did Bismarck or Prinz Eugen had installations that could be used to generate an effective smoke screen ?

both ships had such equipment in the stern (last compartment) - artifical smoke generators using fog acid.
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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby tommy303 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:56 pm

They used chlorosulfonic acid.

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They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby alecsandros » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:58 am

Thank you.

So, would escape on May 24th 5:45 be possible using the smoke generators and accelerating ?

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby RF » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:56 am

I doubt that escape would be possible given that Wake-Walker was shadowing the two German ships. They would only be able to escape by turning starboard and at that point the Greenland ice sheet placed limitations as to how far this could be done.

In my view the proposed smoke screen delays the onset of battle. It means that Holland can join forces with Wake-Walker. As such it does make things more favourable for the RN, particulary if swings to starboard puts POW ahead of Hood as viewed from Bismarck. At some stage I think Holland could launch a four ship assault on Bismarck with the Germans left with little room for manoeuvre. That is why I suspect Lutjens reluctantly accepted battle when Holland opened fire instead of turning away under smoke.
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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby Francis Marliere » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:58 am

Anyway, a ship without smoke generator can make smoke with its funnel(s). While a funnel smokescreen is not as efficient as a chemical one, it can make aiming and spoting very difficult.

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby alecsandros » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:02 am

RF wrote:I doubt that escape would be possible given that Wake-Walker was shadowing the two German ships. They would only be able to escape by turning starboard and at that point the Greenland ice sheet placed limitations as to how far this could be done.


I did not mean escape shadowing,
I meant escape the historical battle with Hood/Prince of Wales, by going south at high speed, shrouded in smoke.

What happens next is another story.

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby RF » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:12 am

Going south at high speed, or rather south south west, means Holland cannot close the German ships but can still chase them. So long as contact is retained, battle will only be a matter of time and as I say it will make things more favourable for the RN when Wake-Walker joins forces with Holland.

If Lutjens persists with high speed turnaways for most of 24 May then fuel considerations start becoming critical for both German ships.
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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby alecsandros » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:24 am

Bismarck was theoretically good for 30kts or more, Prinz Eugen probably 31. Hood 29, PoW 29. Suffolk 31, Norfolk 30.

IMHO, distance between Hood and Bismarck would increase steadily. What would not increase would be distance to Suffolk and Norfolk.

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby Steve Crandell » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:24 pm

I think that given significant delay, Hood would have chosen the correct target.

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby RF » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:32 pm

Yes, as that mistake was spotted quickly.
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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby dunmunro » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:41 pm

The exact displacement of Bismarck's speed trials has never been determined (or disclosed) but it was probably less than Bismarck's displacement on 24 May. PE stated in her war diary that Bismarck went to full power at 2044 23 May (PE War Diary page 18) yet the shadowing cruisers didn't indicate a 30 knot speed for Bismarck. See Suffolk's report:
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09suff.htm
Also note that Bismarck and PE made smoke at 2044 23 May.

Norfolk and Suffolk did increase speed at this time, with Suffolk having to increase to 29.5 knots but the cruisers had to constantly change course to stay at the limits of visibility and to dodge ice flows.

The point is that Bismarck probably couldn't make 30 knots on 24 May .

Hood ran trials on 28 March 1941 and made 28.8 knots with paravanes streamed which equals about 29.5 knots without paravanes. PoW made 28 knots during trials in early May at 111K SHP with paravanes streamed and during the Bismarck operations she achieved a maximum of 134k shp. Any speed advantage Bismarck may have had, was likely to be a fraction of a knot and she would have had to place a dangerous strain on her power plant to achieve it.

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby alecsandros » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:52 pm

dunmunro wrote:The exact displacement of Bismarck's speed trials has never been determined (or disclosed) but it was probably less than Bismarck's displacement on 24 May. PE stated in her war diary that Bismarck went to full power at 2044 23 May (PE War Diary page 18) yet the shadowing cruisers didn't indicate a 30 knot speed for Bismarck. See Suffolk's report:
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09suff.htm
Also note that Bismarck and PE made smoke at 2044 23 May.

Norfolk and Suffolk did increase speed at this time, with Suffolk having to increase to 29.5 knots but the cruisers had to constantly change course to stay at the limits of visibility and to dodge ice flows.

The point is that Bismarck probably couldn't make 30 knots on 24 May .

Hood ran trials on 28 March 1941 and made 28.8 knots with paravanes streamed which equals about 29.5 knots without paravanes. PoW made 28 knots during trials in early May at 111K SHP with paravanes streamed and during the Bismarck operations she achieved a maximum of 134k shp. Any speed advantage Bismarck may have had, was likely to be a fraction of a knot and she would have had to place a dangerous strain on her power plant to achieve it.


Hood and Prince of Wales were doing maximum revolutions in order to intercept Bismarck, and the speed noted in Prince of Wales's log was 29.1kts. It is irrelevant if it was the limitations of speed of Hood, or of PoW, either of the 2 ships was stuck at 29.1kts that morning.

Bismarck did 30.6kts at 75% construction load, as you have been told numerous times. :dance:
The displacement of the ship during the battle, in theory, should be around 75% construction load as well, as signficant fuel was burnt on route.

What was the maximum speed in practice that morning is another story. From the approach speed delta versus PRinz Eugen, an estimation of 30.5kts has been given. However, nothing definitive.

Prinz Eugen's log shows speeds up to 32kts that morning, for brief periods of time, and intervals of 30 and 31kts. (for the cruiser)

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby dunmunro » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:20 pm

alecsandros wrote:
dunmunro wrote:The exact displacement of Bismarck's speed trials has never been determined (or disclosed) but it was probably less than Bismarck's displacement on 24 May. PE stated in her war diary that Bismarck went to full power at 2044 23 May (PE War Diary page 18) yet the shadowing cruisers didn't indicate a 30 knot speed for Bismarck. See Suffolk's report:
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09suff.htm
Also note that Bismarck and PE made smoke at 2044 23 May.

Norfolk and Suffolk did increase speed at this time, with Suffolk having to increase to 29.5 knots but the cruisers had to constantly change course to stay at the limits of visibility and to dodge ice flows.

The point is that Bismarck probably couldn't make 30 knots on 24 May .

Hood ran trials on 28 March 1941 and made 28.8 knots with paravanes streamed which equals about 29.5 knots without paravanes. PoW made 28 knots during trials in early May at 111K SHP with paravanes streamed and during the Bismarck operations she achieved a maximum of 134k shp. Any speed advantage Bismarck may have had, was likely to be a fraction of a knot and she would have had to place a dangerous strain on her power plant to achieve it.


Hood and Prince of Wales were doing maximum revolutions in order to intercept Bismarck, and the speed noted in Prince of Wales's log was 29.1kts. It is irrelevant if it was the limitations of speed of Hood, or of PoW, either of the 2 ships was stuck at 29.1kts that morning.

Bismarck did 30.6kts at 75% construction load, as you have been told numerous times. :dance:
The displacement of the ship during the battle, in theory, should be around 75% construction load as well, as signficant fuel was burnt on route.

What was the maximum speed in practice that morning is another story. From the approach speed delta versus PRinz Eugen, an estimation of 30.5kts has been given. However, nothing definitive.

Prinz Eugen's log shows speeds up to 32kts that morning, for brief periods of time, and intervals of 30 and 31kts. (for the cruiser)


The claim was for 30.1 knots at 75% construction load or about 49400 tonnes. Bismark's full load was about 53500 tonnes in May 1941 and she probably displaced ~51000 tonnes on May 24. Additionally Bismarck would have been a little slower due to bottom fouling so we can place Bismarck's theoretical maximum speed at ~29.5 knots.

We know that PoW and Hood steamed at 29.1 knots for the hour before intercepting Bismarck [29.1 was the average speed and at times her speed was lower during that hour] but we don't know if this was either ship's full speed but we can state that the speed difference between Bismarck and Holland's force was at most about ~.4 knots

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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Postby alecsandros » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:30 am

dunmunro wrote:
The claim was for 30.1 knots at 75% construction load or about 49400 tonnes. Bismark's full load was about 53500 tonnes in May 1941 and she probably displaced ~51000 tonnes on May 24. Additionally Bismarck would have been a little slower due to bottom fouling so we can place Bismarck's theoretical maximum speed at ~29.5 knots.

We know that PoW and Hood steamed at 29.1 knots for the hour before intercepting Bismarck [29.1 was the average speed and at times her speed was lower during that hour] but we don't know if this was either ship's full speed but we can state that the speed difference between Bismarck and Holland's force was at most about ~.4 knots

... It is no claim,
It is the recorded speed of the ship during trials. Check "Bismarck speed" topic , Herr Nilson has posted the relevant documents there some time ago.
30.6kts at 75% load, meaning about 49000 tons.

Bismarck's full load was of course around 51000 tons (her slightly bigger and more equipped sister ship Tirpitz approached 53000tons , in 1944).


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