What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by dunmunro »

From this website:

http://www.kbismarck.com/bsweights.html
http://www.kbismarck.com/genedata.html

GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS
Battleship Bismarck
· Standard: 43,978 metric tons
· Construction: 47,870 metric tons
· Full load: 51,760 metric tons
· Maximum: 53,486 metric tons
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by alecsandros »

If using metric tons,
the 75% load correspondingly increases to around 51.000 tons.
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by dunmunro »

alecsandros wrote:If using metric tons,
the 75% load correspondingly increases to around 51.000 tons.
I've given all the weights in metric tonnes (tonnes = metric).
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by alecsandros »

Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by dunmunro »

alecsandros wrote:Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
see the post dated:
Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3142&start=570

The values for Bismarck according the weight list from April 30th 1940 are:
Displacement without payload: 43356 mt
Displacement with 100% payload: 51395 mt

so 75%load = ~49400 tonnes.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
alecsandros wrote:Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
see the post dated:
Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3142&start=570

The values for Bismarck according the weight list from April 30th 1940 are:
Displacement without payload: 43356 mt
Displacement with 100% payload: 51395 mt

so 75%load = ~49400 tonnes.
... And where is the problem ?

If ship left Bergen at 51300 tons, consumed 2600 tons of fuel until evening of May 23rd, then it will have less then 48700 tons weight on May 24th morning.
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by dunmunro »

alecsandros wrote:
dunmunro wrote:
alecsandros wrote:Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
see the post dated:
Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3142&start=570

The values for Bismarck according the weight list from April 30th 1940 are:
Displacement without payload: 43356 mt
Displacement with 100% payload: 51395 mt

so 75%load = ~49400 tonnes.
... And where is the problem ?

If ship left Bergen at 51300 tons, consumed 2600 tons of fuel until evening of May 23rd, then it will have less then 48700 tons weight on May 24th morning.
Bismarck used her reserve tanks while in service,(confusing? Yes!) hence her maximum displacement was actually 53,486 mt. She was also 3.5 months out of dock and her actual maximum weight was probably slightly higher because of the extra stores and personnel taken on board.
Last edited by dunmunro on Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
Bismarck used her reserve tanks while in service,(confusing? Yes!) hence her maximum displacement was actually 53,486 mt.
According to Group West ,
Bismarck's fuel load on departure from Bergen was 7700 cbm...
viewtopic.php?t=3556#p46365

according to the same source, fuel load on May 24th 00:00 was 5100 cmb...
dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by dunmunro »

alecsandros wrote:
dunmunro wrote:
Bismarck used her reserve tanks while in service,(confusing? Yes!) hence her maximum displacement was actually 53,486 mt.
According to Group West ,
Bismarck's fuel load on departure from Bergen was 7700 cbm...
viewtopic.php?t=3556#p46365

according to the same source, fuel load on May 24th 00:00 was 5100 cmb...
There was about 300 more tonnes of fuel which was aboard but not burnable.

Anyways, it seems likely that Bismarck would be about .5 knots slower than on her trials, while Hood and PoW were faster than their trial speeds because the RN conducted their "full power" trials at less than full power, while the KM conducted theirs at maximum possible power.

Any speed superiority that Lutjens had over Holland was quite small, if it actually existed. Additionally Lutjens had to shake off his shadowers long enough for PE to break away to reach a tanker.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by alecsandros »

dunmunro wrote:
Anyways, it seems likely that Bismarck would be about .5 knots slower than on her trials, while Hood and PoW were faster than their trial speeds because the RN conducted their "full power" trials at less than full power, while the KM conducted theirs at maximum possible power.
No,
the numbers are 30,6kts for Bismarck and 29.1kts for Prince of WAles, coming from primary sources.

What is unknown is how comparable is the context in which the 2 speeds were attained.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by alecsandros »

Anyhow,
in the scenario I proposed,
I think the Baron's book explains some of the action: when they were doing wargames before Rheinubung, Hood was simulated as having 32kts... It is possible that Luetjens thought the speed of Hood was to great to attempt a run for it...
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7759
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by RF »

Don't forget in all this analysis that the Germans did not immediately make the correct identification when Holland's two ships were sighted. They were initially identified as two cruisers, even though the Prinz Eugen had picked up the approach of two heavy ships on its sonar prior to sighting.
Only immediately prior to Kerr opening fire was Hood correctly identified, while POW was not correctly identified until nearly 12 hours after the DS battle, and then by Group West and not by Lutjens or his fleet staff..
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed

Post by alecsandros »

Good point.
It is unknown when did Luetjens/Lindemann knew for certain that they were facing capital ships.
It is possible that the fall of shot of the first salvo from Hood (probably landed at 5:53) was the most certain point at which they must have known for sure. Before that... who knows.
Post Reply