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Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:17 am
by dunmunro
From this website:
http://www.kbismarck.com/bsweights.html
http://www.kbismarck.com/genedata.html
GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS
Battleship Bismarck
· Standard: 43,978 metric tons
· Construction: 47,870 metric tons
· Full load: 51,760 metric tons
· Maximum: 53,486 metric tons
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:54 am
by alecsandros
If using metric tons,
the 75% load correspondingly increases to around 51.000 tons.
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:04 am
by dunmunro
alecsandros wrote:If using metric tons,
the 75% load correspondingly increases to around 51.000 tons.
I've given all the weights in metric tonnes (tonnes = metric).
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:15 am
by alecsandros
Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:08 am
by dunmunro
alecsandros wrote:Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
see the post dated:
Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3142&start=570
The values for Bismarck according the weight list from April 30th 1940 are:
Displacement without payload: 43356 mt
Displacement with 100% payload: 51395 mt
so 75%load = ~49400 tonnes.
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:12 am
by alecsandros
dunmunro wrote:alecsandros wrote:Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
see the post dated:
Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3142&start=570
The values for Bismarck according the weight list from April 30th 1940 are:
Displacement without payload: 43356 mt
Displacement with 100% payload: 51395 mt
so 75%load = ~49400 tonnes.
... And where is the problem ?
If ship left Bergen at 51300 tons, consumed 2600 tons of fuel until evening of May 23rd, then it will have less then 48700 tons weight on May 24th morning.
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:08 pm
by dunmunro
alecsandros wrote:dunmunro wrote:alecsandros wrote:Then weight per 75% load is no longer 49000 tons (that corresponds to 41700 long tons displacement). It is around 51000 metric tons or so.
see the post dated:
Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3142&start=570
The values for Bismarck according the weight list from April 30th 1940 are:
Displacement without payload: 43356 mt
Displacement with 100% payload: 51395 mt
so 75%load = ~49400 tonnes.
... And where is the problem ?
If ship left Bergen at 51300 tons, consumed 2600 tons of fuel until evening of May 23rd, then it will have less then 48700 tons weight on May 24th morning.
Bismarck used her reserve tanks while in service,(confusing? Yes!) hence her maximum displacement was actually 53,486 mt. She was also 3.5 months out of dock and her actual maximum weight was probably slightly higher because of the extra stores and personnel taken on board.
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:15 pm
by alecsandros
dunmunro wrote:
Bismarck used her reserve tanks while in service,(confusing? Yes!) hence her maximum displacement was actually 53,486 mt.
According to Group West ,
Bismarck's fuel load on departure from Bergen was 7700 cbm...
viewtopic.php?t=3556#p46365
according to the same source, fuel load on May 24th 00:00 was 5100 cmb...
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:27 pm
by dunmunro
alecsandros wrote:dunmunro wrote:
Bismarck used her reserve tanks while in service,(confusing? Yes!) hence her maximum displacement was actually 53,486 mt.
According to Group West ,
Bismarck's fuel load on departure from Bergen was 7700 cbm...
viewtopic.php?t=3556#p46365
according to the same source, fuel load on May 24th 00:00 was 5100 cmb...
There was about 300 more tonnes of fuel which was aboard but not burnable.
Anyways, it seems likely that Bismarck would be about .5 knots slower than on her trials, while Hood and PoW were faster than their trial speeds because the RN conducted their "full power" trials at less than full power, while the KM conducted theirs at maximum possible power.
Any speed superiority that Lutjens had over Holland was quite small, if it actually existed. Additionally Lutjens had to shake off his shadowers long enough for PE to break away to reach a tanker.
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:42 am
by alecsandros
dunmunro wrote:
Anyways, it seems likely that Bismarck would be about .5 knots slower than on her trials, while Hood and PoW were faster than their trial speeds because the RN conducted their "full power" trials at less than full power, while the KM conducted theirs at maximum possible power.
No,
the numbers are 30,6kts for Bismarck and 29.1kts for Prince of WAles, coming from primary sources.
What is unknown is how comparable is the context in which the 2 speeds were attained.
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:57 am
by alecsandros
Anyhow,
in the scenario I proposed,
I think the Baron's book explains some of the action: when they were doing wargames before Rheinubung, Hood was simulated as having 32kts... It is possible that Luetjens thought the speed of Hood was to great to attempt a run for it...
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:24 am
by RF
Don't forget in all this analysis that the Germans did not immediately make the correct identification when Holland's two ships were sighted. They were initially identified as two cruisers, even though the Prinz Eugen had picked up the approach of two heavy ships on its sonar prior to sighting.
Only immediately prior to Kerr opening fire was Hood correctly identified, while POW was not correctly identified until nearly 12 hours after the DS battle, and then by Group West and not by Lutjens or his fleet staff..
Re: What if: Bismarck or Prinz Eugen made smoke at 5:45 and accelerated at max speed
Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:50 am
by alecsandros
Good point.
It is unknown when did Luetjens/Lindemann knew for certain that they were facing capital ships.
It is possible that the fall of shot of the first salvo from Hood (probably landed at 5:53) was the most certain point at which they must have known for sure. Before that... who knows.