Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

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Matrose71
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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby Matrose71 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:01 am

Hello,

As for discussion about who would win based on theoretical scenarios they are all flawed. The Bismarck wasn't designed to go toe-to-toe with British capital ships. Arguing that she could of beat any of them is really conjecture because the people who built her and those who sailed on her knew that gunnery battles between battleships are slugfests and almost always end with both sides receiving damage.


I realy don't understand the claim, Bismarck wasn't designed to go toe-to-toe with British capital ships?
What is your opinion, for what she was designed? And please tell us not, she was designed as a commerce raider, because that is secondary literature bullshit and a myth.
From primary sources Bismarck was the answer of the french Richelieu Class and was designed to go toe-to-toe with the french battleship.
What is the difference between the french Richelieu Class and British capital ships?

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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby kevin32422 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:04 pm

If I remember right the Bismarck was built to draw off the British battle cruisers and battleships from the convoys, thus allowing the German cruisers pocket battleships, and battle cruisers to engage the British convoys. but keep in mind this is when all of plan Z was to be completed

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RF
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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby RF » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:12 pm

Plan Z stated thar H Classe battleships would do that job.

Bismarck and Tirpitz were constructed to serve prior to the H Classe being commissioned, afterwhich the implication was that Bismarck would be redundant (or at least wasn't mentioned in the Z Plan scheme of battle).
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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby Guest » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:54 pm

Guest wrote:These scenarios are no doubt fun statistically but I fundamentally disagree with some of the discussion.



Now you will get no argument from me about the fact the Bismarck was a superb ship and could beat any British battleship. But what I will argue is she would not have come out unscathed and could equally be beaten by them. Her captain and her crew, unlike some members of this forum, knew she couldn't afford to get into a fight with British capital ships and on the two occasions where she did, she received damage requiring port repairs and was then smashed to pieces.

In short if a Nelson class was ever to have come up against the Bismarck, the Bismarck would have sailed away at full speed to avoid getting damaged, and that would have been exactly the right thing to do. If she couldn't run then I think both ships would have smashed each other up.

Gentlemen,
I would agree with the above, German ships were under orders not to attack convoys that had battleship protection, no doubt Bismarck would have attacked on her own if the protecting ship was an old 'R' class battleship or an 'R' class battlecruiser, but if the escort was a 'Nelson' or a 'KGV' I would suggest that Lutyens would have used her speed to avoid combat and go and find an easier target as she really could not afford to be damaged in mid Atlantic with no friendly port to run to.

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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby RF » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:07 am

Given that Bismarck did have staff officers included in the Fleet staff specifically concerned with U-boat co-operation it is more likely that Lutjens may have called for a U-boat attack to torpedo the battleship and deal with the problem that way.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:26 pm

Matrose71 wrote:Hello,

As for discussion about who would win based on theoretical scenarios they are all flawed. The Bismarck wasn't designed to go toe-to-toe with British capital ships. Arguing that she could of beat any of them is really conjecture because the people who built her and those who sailed on her knew that gunnery battles between battleships are slugfests and almost always end with both sides receiving damage.


I realy don't understand the claim, Bismarck wasn't designed to go toe-to-toe with British capital ships?
What is your opinion, for what she was designed? And please tell us not, she was designed as a commerce raider, because that is secondary literature bullshit and a myth.
From primary sources Bismarck was the answer of the french Richelieu Class and was designed to go toe-to-toe with the french battleship.
What is the difference between the french Richelieu Class and British capital ships?

Gentlemen,
In spite of of the above statement I think there is no doubt that Bismarck was designed to attack convoys even if they were escorted. Yes she may have been the German answer to Richelieu but she was not designed to specifically do nothing else but go out and find an enemy battleship to fight as it appears in the statement above. Remember, when she was engaged Hood and PoW she had no option but to fight it out, successfully as it turned out, but she took damage form a couple of shells one of which was significant enough for Lutjens to decide to make for Brest. I maintain what I said in an earlier post that if Bismarck on her own came across a convoy escorted
by a modern heavy battleship (Nelson, KGv class) which would almost certainly have a destroyer escort she would not engage. If I remember correctly, the subject of Rodney v Bismarck hand to hand came up some time ago when it was discussed about what would have happened if Bismarck had run across Rodney on her way to Brest (they missed each other by about 50 miles) and the conclusion was that Bismarck would not have engaged and risked further possibly crippling damage but would have used her superior speed to get away.

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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby RF » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:58 am

What needs to be understood here is that the KM was engaged in interdiction of Allied trade, whether by U-boat or surface raider, as a means of defeating Britain. The question of Richelieu is something of a red herring as France was a land power so far as Germany was concerned - France has to be defeated on land, sinking the Richelieu is irrelevant to Germany defeating France. This question only arose to justify the construction of Bismarck internationally, as prestige oneupmanship.

Bismarck would only choose to engage another battleship as part of the commerce war - namely the battleship was escorting merchant ships. The orders given to KM commanders of all regular KM warships was quite clear on this - to avoid action with Allied warships unless it was part of the commerce war - and then only if the opposition was inferior (namely presented a good chance of success).
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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby alecsandros » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:38 am

Rheinubung orders specifically mentioned Bismarck to engage enemy escorting battleship while Prinz Eugen engaged the otehr escorts and attacks the cargo ships.

"However, the objective of the battleship Bismarck should not be to defeat, in an all-out engagement, enemies of equal strength, but to tie them clown in a delaying action, while preserving her own combat capability as much as possible, so as to allow the other ships to get at the merchant vessels in the convoy. "

http://www.kbismarck.com/rheinubung-ope ... order.html

Matrose71
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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby Matrose71 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:01 pm

Guest wrote:
Matrose71 wrote:Hello,

As for discussion about who would win based on theoretical scenarios they are all flawed. The Bismarck wasn't designed to go toe-to-toe with British capital ships. Arguing that she could of beat any of them is really conjecture because the people who built her and those who sailed on her knew that gunnery battles between battleships are slugfests and almost always end with both sides receiving damage.


I realy don't understand the claim, Bismarck wasn't designed to go toe-to-toe with British capital ships?
What is your opinion, for what she was designed? And please tell us not, she was designed as a commerce raider, because that is secondary literature bullshit and a myth.
From primary sources Bismarck was the answer of the french Richelieu Class and was designed to go toe-to-toe with the french battleship.
What is the difference between the french Richelieu Class and British capital ships?

Gentlemen,
In spite of of the above statement I think there is no doubt that Bismarck was designed to attack convoys even if they were escorted. Yes she may have been the German answer to Richelieu but she was not designed to specifically do nothing else but go out and find an enemy battleship to fight as it appears in the statement above. Remember, when she was engaged Hood and PoW she had no option but to fight it out, successfully as it turned out, but she took damage form a couple of shells one of which was significant enough for Lutjens to decide to make for Brest. I maintain what I said in an earlier post that if Bismarck on her own came across a convoy escorted
by a modern heavy battleship (Nelson, KGv class) which would almost certainly have a destroyer escort she would not engage. If I remember correctly, the subject of Rodney v Bismarck hand to hand came up some time ago when it was discussed about what would have happened if Bismarck had run across Rodney on her way to Brest (they missed each other by about 50 miles) and the conclusion was that Bismarck would not have engaged and risked further possibly crippling damage but would have used her superior speed to get away.



This is wrong after primary sources!
Bismarck was designed, speed and range, to be able to fight at the atlantic ocean.
Her armour design goals were described at detail at the Lilienthal Report from 1943, which was a sophisticated comparation from german naval engineers between the BS Class and the Richellieu class.

According to this report, the german naval engineers came after the development of the german SK 34 naval gun family and the new APC L 4.4 shell, to the conclusion, that a workable main belt (thickness) wasn't strong enough for the new guns and shells, so they decided to include parts of the horizontal armour layout (Slopes of the main armour deck), as backup for the vertical layout.

BS was designed at the same time as the german british naval agreement (1935) and nobody at this time was thinking to attack british or allied convoys! Also the Lilienthal report states clearly, that the BS class was the direct german answer to the Richelieu class. The Lilienthal report is a german primary source!

Vorgänge beim Beschuß von Panzerplatten ; Bericht 166 Lilienthalgesellschaft Berlin 1943 GKdos.

If you have a primary source, which explains that the BS class was designed to attack convois then please provide it. To my sources this is rubbish.

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Re: Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

Postby RF » Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:17 pm

Matrose71 wrote:
BS was designed at the same time as the german british naval agreement (1935) and nobody at this time was thinking to attack british or allied convoys!


I don't really understand the point of this post. Bismarck was conceived after the Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1934 came into effect, when the KM was moving towards the Z Plan, which was not finally adopted until 1939.

Whether Bismarck was designed for convoy attack or not is academic, it was designed to engage the enemy which might well include a convoy situation. You admit Bismarck was designed for Atlantic rather than North Sea use, which in itself implies attack on commerce and hence convoys.

The Z Plan specifically delineated convoy attack as a means of winning a sea war by attrition. The operational orders for Rheinubung specifically specified convoy attack . German plans pre-1934 are irrelevant, that was a different age, but even then the panzersciffe were designed as long range commerce raiders, at a time when war was improbable.
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