Prince Eugane v AGS

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Paul L
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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by Paul L » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:03 am

not seen any data on hitting a zigzag target.

AGS armor good against 6" guns but 8" guns should get penetrations starting at 10-12,000 yards.An 8" shell did penetrate the outer 4" belt if the AGS, but not the MAD . I have read they DID damage the steam system for galley services and shrapnel damage the oil purification system. It seems the 11" gun penetrations did amore damage per hit to the RN cruisers .
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Thorsten Wahl
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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:07 pm

Paul L wrote:...I have read they DID damage the steam system for galley services and shrapnel damage the oil purification system .
Shrapnell damage was done to the exhaust system. All systems wich uses this exhaust has to be tempoarily shut off, because of danger of explosion by fumes.
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alecsandros
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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by alecsandros » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:17 pm

Paul L wrote:
not sure that advantage would be enough. using plate as reference 8" guns got hit every 67 shells , while 11"C28 got a hit every 45 shells.

Every minute the British could fire 16 x 4 =64 /67 or 95.5% hit, while the AGS could fire only 6 x 3 = 18/45 or 40% chance of hit. Now weight of fire is closer with 12000lb per minute for the AGS compared to over 16,000lb for the county cruisers. Not as much of an advantage as it first appears. What's more , while the AGS hits on Exeter were crippling, the only result of the Exeter was a potential mission kill after the fact.
The British in stern chase would be using 4 guns each. Thus total of 8 guns. With max range of 27km, effective range would be 18km and 50% range would be 14km or so.

No consistent hits would be obtained outside 18km - making them continously in danger of being destroyed by 11" guns, with effective firing range outside their own effective firing range.

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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by alecsandros » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:24 pm

paul.mercer wrote: Thanks for that,
One other point, in a 'stern chase' AGS whilst having the initial capability to outrange the cruisers, surely the cruisers would not be steering a straight course but instead would be weaving about to avoid being hit making the AGS rangefinding more difficult, especially as she would only have three guns to fire against two ships unless she constantly turned to bring her forward turret into action which in turn would help to reduce the range for the pursuing cruisers? Also, while acknowledging the impact of 11" shells on a relatively lightly armoured cruisers, was the armour on AGS that heavy as to enable her to absorb multiple hits from 8"?
Zig-zagging would mean slower delta speed, as they would be losing forward approach speed. Thus they would decrease enemy hit rate per salvo , but would offer themselves as (almost) non-responsive targets for a longer time (probably around 60 minutes). 1 hour is a long time, and it woudl be unlikely for them to avoid ALL the 3-gun salvos of AGS (about 60 salvos and 180 shots fired from the stern turret).

There would also be the possibility of a battle for annihilation - as AGS could turn against them at any time (witout warning), and with a delta speed of 56kts, killing range would be entered almost immediately. Most likely such an action would destroy 1 heavy cruiser, and badly damage the other (leaving it a sinking hulk), while AGS would be burning and sinking herself.

Paul L
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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by Paul L » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:15 pm

Thorsten Wahl wrote:
Paul L wrote:...I have read they DID damage the steam system for galley services and shrapnel damage the oil purification system .
Shrapnell damage was done to the exhaust system. All systems wich uses this exhaust has to be tempoarily shut off, because of danger of explosion by fumes.
Thanks TW!

Does that mean the damage was repairable ?
Could such repairs be effected at sea with a Dithmarschen AOE?
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RF
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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by RF » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:05 pm

paul.mercer wrote: ..... was the armour on AGS that heavy as to enable her to absorb multiple hits from 8"?
Rasenack thought not in his comments on the two eight inch hits from Exeter.
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alecsandros
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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by alecsandros » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:51 am

RF wrote:
paul.mercer wrote: ..... was the armour on AGS that heavy as to enable her to absorb multiple hits from 8"?
Rasenack thought not in his comments on the two eight inch hits from Exeter.
80mm declined at 20deg is not enough to resist 8" impact.
AGS wasn't designed to resist 8inch gunfire, but to destroy 8" cruisers before they could inflict damage on her.

Of course, what actualy happened was a different matter, and it showed that 8inch cruisers could inflict damage on a PBB before being silenced by the superior 11" armament.

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RF
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Re: Prince Eugane v AGS

Post by RF » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:38 pm

The essential point here is that Langsdorf purposely closed the range instead of keeping it open, having initially mistaken Harwood's force as a light cruiser and two destroyers supposedly on convoy escort.

Had the range been kept open Exeter could have been pummelled at sufficient range that AGS doesn't come under fire. Indeed at long range the shell trajectories are steeper and the hits on Exeter are more likely to sink or even blow up that ship rather than just cripple.
Had that happened Ajax and Achilles would then have been subject to long range plunging fire.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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