Photo Quiz #12

Naval photographers post your photos here. Warship tours, mistery ships, quizzes, etc.
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Terje Langoy
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Photo Quiz #12

Post by Terje Langoy » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:30 pm

It's been a while since I last had a quiz posted so let's have another photo for you to figure out.

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The identity of these officers will give you the ship, the date and also the location

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José M. Rico
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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by José M. Rico » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:57 pm

I think that shot was taken pre-war aboard one of the twins? :think:

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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by Terje Langoy » Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:59 pm

Okay, Jose... You've narrowed it down quite a bit. So, we're aboard a Scharnhorst-class battleship during pre-war. Still no idea concerning the officers..?

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Post by Terje Langoy » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:30 pm

Ok

It’s about time I blow the whistle on this one. An explanation will follow at the end of the post. Jose had this one respectably circled in with his reply so now I’ll just fill out the rest of the info. I won this and a few other related photos at an e-bay auction a while ago and can assure you I was indeed willing to pay a lot more than I fortunately did just to get my “dirty” hands on them. I will add that identification of the ship really was of secondary importance as I had hoped to trigger your curious minds towards the officers and the event. So, let me go ahead and ring the bell…

We are viewing the starboard side of the bridge of the Gneisenau during a visit of Adolf Hitler, accompanied by several naval top brasses, 22 July 1938, at Kiel. The officers we see are Fregattenkapitän Werner Schönermark, executive officer, currently substituting as commander of the ship during this particular event. Schönermark could in a way be recognized as one of the fathers of the Gneisenau, being present at the Deutsche Werke almost from the day her keel was laid. The character behind Schönermark does not need any presentation. In front of the musical fellow we see the “usual” commander of the ship, Kpt.s.Z. Erich Förste. He is not present in effect of command but arrived aboard together with Hitler’s entourage this day. And though I’m not 100% sure, I have my mind set that the last face here, the officer peeking through the door, is the current C-in-C of the Fleet, Admiral Rolf Carls. An observation I derive from this photo is that Förste does not make a salute. I’m figuring that the Gneisenau must have been passing another ship (possibly the flagship Graf Spee) at this very moment and that Schönermark, acting as the commander, so forth is the only one required to salute.

So, I must admit I did have another motive for making the quiz about this ship. It was on this very day, 67 years ago, that the most beautiful ship ever built was fatally injured in an air attack. Oh, a sad day indeed..!

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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by RF » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:43 am

Terje,

Can you repost this photo as I am unable to open the image.
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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by RF » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:35 am

I now have the photo on PM, thank you Terje.

One observation - what exactly is the rating on the right of the top brass doing, is he holding what looks like a bugle?
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Re:

Post by RF » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:39 am

Terje Langoy wrote:
I’m figuring that the Gneisenau must have been passing another ship (possibly the flagship Graf Spee) at this very moment and that Schönermark, acting as the commander, so forth is the only one required to salute.
Notice that the Fuhrer is extending a ''proper Nazi salute'' also and not the more usual ''Hitler wave'' of extending his right forearm upwards and bent back with open hand.....as seen on Hitler's visit to the Bismarck, behind turret Dora.
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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by Terje Langoy » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:17 pm

RF wrote:...what exactly is the rating on the right of the top brass doing, is he holding what looks like a bugle?
Yup, I guess he would be sounding some signal alright. The trumpeter is one of two observations that instantly had me thinking about the Graf Spee, the other clue being Kpt.s.Z. Förste which appears to be looking straight forward while they salute. This would to me indicate that the officers here are saluting someone at a relatively equal height.
RF wrote:...Notice that the Fuhrer is extending a ''proper Nazi salute'' also and not the more usual ''Hitler wave'' of extending his right forearm upwards and bent back with open hand.....as seen on Hitler's visit to the Bismarck, behind turret Dora.
Perhaps we could describe these variations as the Formal (executed on the photo) and the more Personal (as described in your post) salutes of Hitler. The latter could have been frequent at "face distance" whereas the former was the proper salute for longer distances?

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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by RF » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:34 am

Interesting comment Terje. Most pictures of Hitler giving a salute are of the ''Hitler wave'' version. Are there any pictures of Hitler actually giving a correct military salute in the accepted fashion - even General Tojo saluted ''properly.''
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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by Terje Langoy » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:10 pm

RF wrote:Most pictures of Hitler giving a salute are of the ''Hitler wave'' version. Are there any pictures of Hitler actually giving a correct military salute in the accepted fashion - even General Tojo saluted ''properly.''
From the top of my head, I instantly think of two photos where Hitler can be seen saluting properly ... when he visited the Bismarck in Gotenhafen. Note that this occured not when he was already aboard but as he responded to the ship's crew greeting him as he arrived by the ship, hence my earlier statement of distances.

To be 100% sure I just grabbed Ballard's book from the shelf. Ah, I found it! Check at p. 34 if you have this book. HItler is depicted along with Admiral Lütjens and a few of his staff officers (which btw salute traditional style) I'd say he is indeed saluting properly here. ...Or should I say giving a Formal salute?

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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by RF » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:20 am

Not sure whether this is the same photo I am thinking of, but I recall Hitler returned Lutjen's salute with the Party salute - I'll check my copy of Ballard's book over the weekend.
The point I was raising was that when Hitler had to salute properly was prior to him becoming Fuhrer and was serving in the Kaiser's army, would there be any pictures from that time with Corporal Hitler at the salute?
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Post by Terje Langoy » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:44 pm

RF wrote:The point I was raising was that when Hitler had to salute properly was prior to him becoming Fuhrer and was serving in the Kaiser's army, would there be any pictures from that time with Corporal Hitler at the salute?
Would there be many pictures of Corporal Hitler at all..?

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Re: Photo Quiz #12

Post by RF » Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:23 am

It appears that quite a few pictures have turned up of Hitler during WW1. Apart from the well known picture taken in Munich of the cheering crowd at the start of WW1, the television programme shown covering the pioneering work of the OSS in compling a psychological profile of Hitler showed numerous WW1 photographs taken by men who served with Hitler. Two of these men were specifically referred to in the context that Hitler was alleged to be homosexual and commited homosexual acts with these two men. Nothing was proved over this - they were unsupported allegations. However none of the photographs showed Hitler in proximity to officers.
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Re:

Post by RF » Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:26 am

Terje Langoy wrote:
I’m figuring that the Gneisenau must have been passing another ship (possibly the flagship Graf Spee) at this very moment
Could someone clarify on this point, in what context would AGS be the flagship, I would have thought the largest ship present would have served that function?
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Post by Terje Langoy » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:29 am

RF wrote:Could someone clarify on this point, in what context would AGS be the flagship, I would have thought the largest ship present would have served that function?
Well, technically speaking you're right that the Graf Spee was not the largest ship present. However Gneisenau was, by the time of this photo, not yet ready to become the flagship. She was still undergoing trials, she was still in a gradual process with regards to completion of her fitting out. The July month of 1938 had the Gneisenau busy conducting trials with her onboard seaplanes, the He 114 and Fw 62, as well as exercising with the Hein'sche Landing Sail - which was soon to be substituted by purpose manouvring instead, (the ship would steer in a circle to create a "docking pond") This month also had the last of her four spherical AA range finders (st.bd. aft) mounted at a proper height to its cylindrical base. Earlier, during the ships maiden voyage, this was found at level with the boat deck.

With Admiral Horthy's visit in Kiel, 22 August 1938, Gneisenau was for the first time serving as Flagship but that was a pure matter of occasion - she was still not regarded fit to become flagship. She was however intended to hoist the flag by the time the current C-in-C of the Fleet, Admiral Rolf Carls, left his command aboard the Graf Spee and went on to become the new BdS (Befehlshaber des Schlachtschiffes) in October 1938. As we know, he was replaced by Admiral Böhm. But the maiden voyage and frequent trials of the Gneisenau during the summer month had unfortunately shown that she needed a serious remodelling from her current design. (That would be the refit of her bow as well as a cap for her horizontal funnel rim) So, she was again postponed as flagship and it was not until May 1939 (at a time when her bow anchors had been relocated as well) that Admiral Böhm and staff finally came aboard to make her flagship.

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