Salvage - better peace then nothing

Anything concerning the wreck. Expeditions, submersibles, photos, etc.
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Trotski
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Salvage - better peace then nothing

Postby Trotski » Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:03 pm

Hello, I´m newbe in this great sait. I must sorry my sometimes strange english - it`s not my mothers tong. I want to create discuss about salvage not a hole wreck (it´s seems to me unreal), but salvage a little peace of it - one main caliber turret. One is already found near wreck (proably turret Caesar) and due their weight I`m sure others is not far around. I belive such act shall not be watched as desecretation of wargrave (as "grave" I see wreck itself - we cannot look hole seabed as grave). Althought I´m quite impressed shipcrew`s bravery - they has possibility raise white flag when situation has clearly hopeless.. but they don`t (but would there be any mercy by English navy after Hood ?) - but indeed for me is important shipwreck itself as today realexisting object. Save even a little peace of it from complete destruction seem to me urgent. Turret weight (little over 1000 ton) is not problem for modern salvage tehnique (as floading cranes or similar) and also should not be extremely expensive. Most difficult seems to me "hooking" such massive object without sever damage for it (even strongest electromagnets seems to me too weak- but if use more then one?). Anyway this problem is solveable. Rescued turret may be exposed in german navy museum or in Bismarck memorial (placed on groundbased barbette - it may even turn, and there must be possibility get inside as it has really). Beyond undoubtfuly historical value is it also great tourism magnet and may over time repay a part of salvage expenses. Of course, turret lies on seaped upside down and from underwater photoes is difficult to see how badly is it damaged. Proably is there several shell penedrations, but mostly I fear that mighty and long barrels may be deformed by hit of seabed (they has in raised state during her last battle). But I think others may be easely found, if searce (for example during next expedition) and there may choose then one in best condition. Found one`s paint seems to be in good state and turret itself not too rusty (only its underpart - loading and turning systems is mostly shmassed during slide.) To see once more her mighty cannons on sunlight - it is worth of efforts. Awaiting comments and practical notes how to make it happen :think:

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foeth
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Postby foeth » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:58 pm

It is difficult to get anything to the surface at that depth. If you use cranes and floating barges, you need to have veeeery long cables and your hook must be a mini-sub to hook on, as you cannot get the hook into position by manuevring your ship (no really, you can't). So you need a heavy lift ship with a ROV hook. Such highly specialized craft exist:

Image

This one can lift 1,600 tons, I visited it a few months ago. Impressive vessel, but the cost of renting and planning would be huge and I'm not even sure they'll go as deep as 5,000m. Also, Bismarck turrets don't exactly have a hook on them, so you have to add it as well.

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Javier L.
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Postby Javier L. » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:36 pm

Wow, what a recovery ship! :shock:
How big is it? displacement, length, etc.
I will check jumboship.nl anyways.

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RF
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Postby RF » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:12 am

Is recovery really desirable?

Look at the way the Titanic has been looted since it was found.

The resting place should be respected as a war grave, look but don't touch. People involved in grave-robbing should be given substantial prison sentences.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Postby Karl Heidenreich » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:26 pm

I know this will sound ridiculous but the best idea is to raise the Bismarck from where she is and transport her to Hamburg where a Memorial Park must be build in order to pay homage not only to the KM heroes but to all naval heroes. It has to be Bismarck because of 2 reasons:
1. Is the wreck that is in one main piece which isn´t the case of Hood or Yamato.
2. Her history is the best known... and is the Bismarck after all.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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WGarzke
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The Wreck of the Bismarck

Postby WGarzke » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:16 pm

To all:

Last summer I had the pleasure of reviewing James Cameron's video footage of the Bismarck wreck. There is no way that the wreck can be salvaged. There is a lot of the underbottom missing from the ship due to damage from the slide down the seamount. Furthermore, the ship came down with great force so that the lower decks have been compressed a little. There is also an increasing amount of rusticle activity on and within the wreck. I noticed this when I saw Jim Cameron's videos and compared those to the photography Dr. Ballard took in 1989. Considering the depth of water and the condition of the hull, there is no way the vessel can be salvaged.

Any recovery of items from the Bismarck wrecksite is strictly prohibited by Maritime Law. All sunken warships in the international oceans belong to the country of origin and permission must be granted to access the wreck. It is my understanding that any expedition to the Bismarck wrecksite also has to be done with the permission of the German government. The stated purpose of the expedition has to be submitted in advance.

Bill Garzke
William H. Garzke, Jr.

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RF
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Postby RF » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:09 pm

Would the German government give permission?

And what about European Union directives on this subject? I presume that given the nature of the EU it is bound to have something to say on this matter.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Gary
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Postby Gary » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:28 pm

Hi all.

You probably have more chance of being hit by lightning than of the German government allowing a salvage operation.

Personally, as an Englishman, I'd be p1ssed off if there was a salvage operation conducted on Hood, Repulse or POW etc.

They are war graves.................let them rest in peace.
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst

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RF
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Postby RF » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:54 am

Agreed. Amen....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

VeenenbergR
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Salvage: a costly operation

Postby VeenenbergR » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:34 pm

Better: to built another Bismarck by Blohm & Voss to be used as a "museum" which surely attracts millions of naval enthusiasts all over the world.

I'am sure ALL DETAILS of the original Bismarck are somewhere: in the archives of the conquering nations like Britain, the US, the French and the Russians. They all lootet Germany bled white in 1945 even taking toilets, all table silver, all churck clocks, all paintings, archives, maschines, electrical gear for railways, many ships, locomotives, millions of men and woman.

Germany had some chances to expose something of great value like the "Goeben": offered by the Turkish Goverment. They refused (the silly cows: being extreme fanatic when trying to conquer most of the world, now extreme to foolish denying anything of their "great" past. Sure: the German Army was a highly professional and large instrument: The Goeben was a relict of the 2nd Navy of the world!!!!!

The Bismarck was the bigest weapon of Hitlers enormous arsenal: an Army of 18 million strong, 1200 submarines, the best tanks and AFV's in the world, the most advanced air force of WWII (the Luftwaffe); an army which looked and smelled (leather) like no other army, having the finest uniforms and regalia ever designed!!!

That Germany lost the war had much to do with the one-man command, the foolish way in treating other nations: when invading the Soviet Union they could have been friendly, trying to make friends instead of deadly enemies. Same with German jews which mostly only want to serve their country: they expelled many scientists, could so have won the war another way.

Were are those superb German weapons now? The Me 262, painted in Germany, but exposed in South Africa, Australia aso. The Typ IX submarine is now to been seen in Chicago, USA. The finest tank: a King Tiger which is complete and can drive: in Saumur in France. The Maus is in Moscow. And so I can go on and on. In germany itself is few to be seen. All military schools and museums are litterary "rekonstrukted" as not to look as well as they once did.

This self hatred even goes on in not rekonstrukting fine buildings of the past and let David Chipperfield rekonstrukt the once very impressive and beautiful "New Museum" in Berlin for 300.000 million Euro to look like a "ruin" !!!

Germans are a sick people again if only going further on a road which denies them to be proud on relics of a great nation they once were.

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RF
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Re: Salvage: a costly operation

Postby RF » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:18 pm

VeenenbergR wrote:Better: to built another Bismarck by Blohm & Voss to be used as a "museum" which surely attracts millions of naval enthusiasts all over the world.



Think of the cost, who is going to pay for it?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Gerard Heimann
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Postby Gerard Heimann » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:24 pm

I too wonder about the cost. I have tried to determine what the Yamato replica cost to make for the recent movie, with no luck.

Gerard

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Bluemill
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Yamato movie?

Postby Bluemill » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:49 pm

Did you just write that there was a movie with the Yamato in it? What is the film?

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Bluemill
"Bismarck, massive and elegant, with the high flare of her bows and majestic sweep of her lines, her ease and arrogance in the water, was then the most graceful, most powerful warship yet built."
-Ludovic Kennedy in his book: Pursuit

Gerard Heimann
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Postby Gerard Heimann » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:24 pm


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Bluemill
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Yamato

Postby Bluemill » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:50 pm

I wonder if there is an english language DVD of this film. Thanks for the URL.

Bluemill
"Bismarck, massive and elegant, with the high flare of her bows and majestic sweep of her lines, her ease and arrogance in the water, was then the most graceful, most powerful warship yet built."
-Ludovic Kennedy in his book: Pursuit


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