Bismarck Wreck Salvage

Anything concerning the wreck. Expeditions, submersibles, photos, etc.
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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Mon May 28, 2007 11:03 pm

You are getting close. The hotels and cruise ships look the same----ugly. A 1:10 scale model of the Bismarck would be nice....like the Yamato model in Japan http://bookguidebywingback.air-nifty.co ... to0051.JPG
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RF
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Re: Raising the wreck

Post by RF » Wed May 30, 2007 9:45 am

JustMe wrote:
The swastika is forbidden in Germany because it is still misused as a propaganda item. It is not the symbol itself, but what it stands for thats is loathed. I personally will gladly accept any bans on those symbols in order to NEVER EVER see those freaks marching our streets again.

replies and answers welcome
Display of the swastika is I understand illegal in Germany, Austria and Poland. It is not illegal in Britain.
The origins of this symbol are believed to lie with Hinduism in India and to this day an inverted form of the swastika is used by some Hindu communities in Britain. I am not aware of any complaints about this use of the symbol.

As you say the problem is in what the symbol represents. Banning it doesn't get rid of what it stands for but over time serves to increase its appeal because it is banned - it gives the impression that there is something to hide and with future generations could cause a revision of history.
For the same reason making ''holocaust denial'' a criminal offence is in my opinion a mistake, it looks like an attack on freedom of speech and in fact gives credibility to the deniers because they can claim that what they say is being suppressed by law because it is ''the truth they don't want you to know''.
The historical evidence for genocide is so historically overwhelming that there is no rational means of denial, so why be scared of the denialists? Better to expose the truth by open debate, not by bans that could look as if there is a conspiracy or other hidden agenda behind them.

This is all quite apart from the fact that banning one symbol doesn't prevent another symbol being used to replace it.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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RF
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Post by RF » Wed May 30, 2007 9:53 am

Ulrich Rudofsky wrote:You are getting close. The hotels and cruise ships look the same----ugly. A 1:10 scale model of the Bismarck would be nice....like the Yamato model in Japan http://bookguidebywingback.air-nifty.co ... to0051.JPG
The thing about cruise ships (and hotels) is that they are top-heavy in structure in order to maximise the number of tourists they can carry. This is a far cry from the days when third class ''pasengers'' could be accomodated en-masse below decks, as on the Titanic, it is about maximisation of tourist revenues.
Large warships had to be squat and bottom heavy to provide stability as a gun platform, and streamlined for speed maximisation. Whilst some WW2 models have beauty, most of the WW1 dreadnoughts are plain ugly and often look dirty (well they were coal-fired....)

In fact I would say that the prettiest warship of WW1 was Seeadler - and that was probably the only sailing vessel used as a warship....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Wed May 30, 2007 11:03 am

RF
Yes they are top-heavy and have little stability in rough seas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h12-msb8LZw
Ulrich

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Post by RF » Thu May 31, 2007 9:23 am

And no doubt good for the pharmacists on board who sell the sea-sickness tablets....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Post by JustinT » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:06 am

When i was younger, i often thought that itd be a cool thing to salvage the Bismark, to see either restored or held as a museum. as ive gotten older, ive realised it is a war memorial, and should be kept as that - however, i do also think that it should be exstencively documented, photographed etc so when she finally deteriorates to rust and dust, we dont forget what her - er, sorry, his, sailors went thru - same as the Hood, and same as other warships lost in combat action. Let them rest in peace - but let us also ensure what they went through, for all of us on all sides, is not forgotten. thier suffering and deaths, same as those on all sides, shoudlnt be forgotten.

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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by oifvet23 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:44 pm

This is my first post and after careful consideration i have come up with my own thoughts about raising the bismarck or any other war grave for that matter. My question is why are these naval war graves so sacred to the point we would rather let what we have left (the ships) of those who served on them disappear. Those ships have been down there over 60 years and look at the deteration that has already accured. How many people have actually seen any of these ships, probably no one except for the few who have had the privledge to dive on the wrecks. How many people know they had family onboard of one of the wrecks. Now before the hands go up, ask yourself do you kids know, will their kids know, how many more years will go by before they are forgotten and it wont matter because there wont be anything left to see. It annoys me to no end that people are willing to sit by and spend millions and billions of dollars on on garbage. Just look around you,How much of that crap you recently bought is going to be there next week, month or year. How much money have you spent on your latest television set, Now how much have you giving to your local veterans group or local history museum. Forget about money most historical preservation organizations would accept any amount of volunteering. The few out there who are trying are struggling to pay the light bills. It is utterly deplorable, so the way I see it is if someone is willing to put up money to save a piece of our history even if it is to be a tourist attraction. Lets face it most people are not willing to put up large sums of money unless they can see making even more money off the project, then let them, and if you don't agree then stay away. You can continue to believe it is a great atrocity to human kind to raise these ships and Im sure your great grand kids will thank you for not being able to put your personal thoughts and feelings aside and think of your future generations who's greatest moments could be to walk the decks of the vessels that shaped our way of life. Photographs can not take the place of history you can touch. I would say I am a member of the newest generation of war fighter and have served in the war for Iraq. I don't see the hummvees that thousands of soldiers are getting blown up in being put up as war memorials, they are stripped of whatever we can use and thrown out. I feel "us" the naval history buff's are a niche group but we need to keep the memories alive, we need to pass this information on to the kids. Lastly i just want to be clear, i am not questioning anyone on this site for the contributions to the preservation of naval history, I am sure I'm preaching to the choir, I am just venting.

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RF
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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by RF » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:16 am

I don't really see that it is necessary to raise and salvage Bismarck to be able to remember the ship. Yes a lot of public money is wasted, by quangos, governments and the European Union, so why add to it.
In any case as a war grave it should be respected, and not used as a public plaything for everybody to walk over.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by jazsa80 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:09 am

Totally agree with those who would raise these ships. People jump up and down on relgious grounds, or what have you, on them being war graves etc. Lets face it, all remains would be gone by now, and these things (such as Bismarck) wont be around forever.

And I would think that if you polled the original crew of a ship like Bismarck, that you would find they were in favor of their vessel being brought back so that generations could learn of their story.

And if anybody doesnt agree with this you can voice your opinion but not becry me as some kind of devil or sick person because you think I am no better than a grave robber.

If Bismarck was brought to the surface, the interest in the ship would explode, I could only imagine the crowds at the port she was brought to and the list of Volunteers eager to work on her. Doing things like placing the photos of the lost crew at their original postions so poeple could walk past as see where such and such was in the last moments of the ship. If nobody remembers you when you are gone you might as well never exsisted.

And remember, pulling a 35000ton hulk from the seabed 4.5km down would cost a fanomanal amount of money and will never happen. But it should. Im just not paying.

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RF
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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by RF » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:40 pm

My objection to raising Bismarck or indeed interfering with the wreck has nothing to do with religion - I don't have a religion.

It is to do with common human decency and respect for the dead. The fact that the human remains are almost certainly gone does not alter or diminish that.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Collingwood
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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by Collingwood » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:02 am

I cannot for the life of me imagine how after 60 years a heavily damaged and disintergrated wreck of such weight and complexity could ever be raised. Perhaps as as been said, a gun. But no more.

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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by jazsa80 » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:28 am

I respect that RF. But I think differently.

The actuall wreck really doesnt look that bad. Much better than the Titanic. I think that being a Battleship it would retain a certain level of structural strength. Who Knows.

My argument would be to Raise the Musashi. It being theorised that she is in one piece. Alot of mysteries wrapt up in those girls (Yamatos). I suspect to get any battleships off the seabed that far down we would be looking at the need for all Jedi Knights to use the Force as one.

So I think those against raising these ships can be happy that it will never happen.

PS say they were moved to be raised, what would the condition of the explosives in all those shells be? They may blow themselves to pieces before reaching the Surface.

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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by als_pug » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:55 pm

A war grave should be regarded as completely off limits to any form of commercial profiteering. i see no reason for a symbol of the ship ie ships bell etc being raiesd and placed at her home port but nothing else should be touched ever period. also any decisions regarding war graves should only be made withthe %100 aproval of all descendants and relatives of the crew. without %100 agreement you are just plain in the wrong and doing something morraly reprehensible.

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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by Bgile » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:49 pm

My interest in the Bismarck wreck is solely due to arguments about damage to the turrets and to other parts of the ship. I hope some day we are able to answer some of these questions from the standpoint of intellectual curiousity without disturbing them.

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Re: Wreck salvage

Post by Legend » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:12 pm

I agree with all of you, exept you Jazsa. Perhaps you are too young to understand what it is like to loose friends like that. If it turned out there was an ancient neolithic tomb with untold riches underneath your mother's graveyard, would you dig it up? I can't imagine a point where the surviving sailors of the Bismarck would want to raise her. I agree that it would be cool to actually walk along the decks of the Atlantic's most feared ship, but for moral reasons there is no excuse to actually raise interest in nieve young generations to actually raise her.
AND THE SEA SHALL GRANT EACH MAN NEW HOPE, AS SLEEP BRINGS DREAMS.

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